Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 175

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    It is compelling evidence which needs to be examined. It
 1is the file number, it is important stuff, go for it.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     When was book published? 1996?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It was written in 1994, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When was the first time you went public on Almeyer? You
 5discovered it in the beginning of June 92.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I drew attention of the fellow historians to it and other
 7writers from 1992 onwards immediately. I found one letter
 8in October 1992 to a Mr Paul Gifford, to whom I sent the
 9entire file on the Holocaust, including the Almeyer
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is he?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     He is a British writer. If you are interested in this
13letter, it was in the discovery. I sent it to him on
14October 7th, saying this file must be returned within four
15weeks please. I sent him a reminder on 29th 1992, that is
16the same year as I found it, saying please now return the
17file. So it went on. I sent it to Gerald Fleming. I
18believe I drew Sir Martin Guildford's attention to it, but
19on that I cannot be certain without looking at my papers.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I cannot challenge that. I am in no position to do that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I certainly drew the attention of, I would say, half a
22dozen or a dozen other writers around the world over these
23years to the Almeyer file.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally this, Mr Irving, I am reading now ----.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite simply because I was not an expert on it and they
26were better placed than I was to evaluate it.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am reading now from the report of Professor Funker,
 2which you may or may not yet have read, who will be giving
 3evidence, I hope, in about a fortnight's time, about
 4political movements and figures in modern Germany. You
 5know who I mean, do you not? Hyo Funker?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think he is a Professor in Berlin. He tells us this
 8about Karl Philip and I want you to comment on it.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will obviously get the chance to cross-examine him if
11he is going to be a witness, I mean Professor Funker.
12Karl Philip NPD: What is NPD?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is national something or other.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Party Deutschland?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that a legal political party in Germany?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     What are you suggesting, that he was a member or an
18official of it? I do not know.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Functionary?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. That is news to me.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not know that? In the 1970s and 1980s?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you know that in 1990 he received a fine of about
243,600 deutschemark for incitement of the people and
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I know the expression give a dog bad name and hang them,

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 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it correct that he received a fine, to your
 3knowledge -- if you do not know, say so -- of 3,600
 4deutschemarks for incitement of the people and defamation?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is not known to me, no.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not known to you?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     When was this?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1990.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When did you first meet Mr Philip?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     1989, October 23rd or thereabouts.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How often do you correspond, speak to or meet Mr Philip,
13Herr Philip?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I suppose 1989, for about two years. He was in
15correspondence with me for those two years. He
16occasionally sends me emails now.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know a newspaper called Die Barenschaft?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The little magazine, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is a neo-Nazi magazine?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I never opened it. It was sent to me and
21it went straight into the trash can.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know Ahmed Rami of Radio Islam in Stockholm?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have had no dealings with him whatsoever.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you leaving Almeyer?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, is the allegation pursued that

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 1Mr Irving sat on the Almeyer material until it was
 2discovered by the defendants' solicitors?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Since I am in no position to challenge that he
 4wrote to these various people when he says that he did, it
 5obviously is not. He did not go into public print on
 6until the Nuremberg book but he did mention it there.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The reason I did not go in public with it is because it
 8was my scoop, and although I am known for my generosity in
 9giving my files away to other writers, this particular one
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What would be the value of a scoop, Mr Irving, when, as
12soon as you have made the scoop, according to you, you
13have to throw it away because it has been devalued by
14being tortured out of the man who provided it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No. What would happened, you see, is just the same as the
16Institute of History in Munich published the Hoess
17memoirs. I would have contemplated publishing the Almeyer
18memoirs with suitable surrounding material and documents
19from the archives, but from 1993 of course this became
20impossible when I was banned from the German archives on
21July 1st and banned from German soil on November 9th.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It would be a bit like publishing the Hitler diaries and
23saying, look at this, it not terrific, it is a forgery?
24It would be absolutely worthless, would it not, according
25to you?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I can see no comparison whatsoever.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I want to move to something else, if I may. Again it
 2is only a little point. My Lord, what I am going to do,
 3if I may, is spend a little time just clearing up some
 4loose ends. Loose ends do happen in the course of
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course they do. Can you explain to me, as
 7you do so, where the loose ends fit in?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am now going to deal with three documents which
 9Mr Irving Denied in evidence that he had ever seen.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I come back on the Almeyer thing by way of
11re-examination, so to speak?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship very rightly asked if they were upholding
14that allegation that I sat on it. There is the specific
15allegation in the van Pelt report that I did not let it be
16known until I heard that Mishcon de Reya ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was what I was asking Mr Rampton about.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You did not specifically mention that footnote, my Lord.
19I think I have established that I put it in the public
20domain long before Mishcon de Reya started scrabbling
21around in the archives.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton is not pursuing that allegation.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I am not pursuing it, subject to this, that
24I would quite like to see the letters which he said that
25he wrote to the various historians.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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