Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 175

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    Mr Rampton, when the time comes to cross-examine your
 1state whether they consider this kind of evidence is
 2dependable.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving,, I am tempted myself to resort such methods to
 4get a straight answer to my question, I have to say. You
 5have no evidential ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It included, for example, crushing the testicles of 165
 7out of 167 witnesses. Is that what you are proposing to
 8do to me?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We cannot fit that many witnesses into your witness box up
10there, Mr Irving, I am afraid. Can you turn to the next
11page, 92, please? It has a 92 in the right hand corner,
12so that you can identify it. It is a letter from you,
13London, 4th June 1992 -- it is a facsimile -- to Karl
14Philip. Just tell me, does it say more or less the same
15as what your letter to Mark Weber said?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I do not know what file I am supposed to be looking
17at.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is yes, having read
19through it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It looks like it. My German is rotten but it
21looks much the same.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who is Philip?
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is my next question. Who is Karl Philip?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     He is a German friend of mine.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why would he want to have this information?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have to think back. In 1992 he was publishing a

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 1newsletter.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is another revisionist, is he not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh yes. He is a wicked revisionist.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, he is another revisionist?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     But I said yes, he is a revisionist.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said he was a wicked revisionist. Would you like to
 7expand on why he is wicked?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Apparently all revisionists are wicked. This is a piece
 9of sarcasm on my part which obviously totally escaped you.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, revisionists are wicked if they tell deliberate
11falsehoods about the past.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Let us hear if you can catch me out in telling deliberate
13falsehoods on oath, which is of course a serious matter.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On we go, I think.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I quite agree. The last three pages in this
16little clip should be some pages from your book
17Nuremberg. Do you recognize them? Starting with the page
18number 245.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a paragraph at the bottom of page 245 which
21begins, "in fact Eichmann".
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I just have the notes here. I have 245, yes, page
236.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In fact Eichmann had no authority to issue orders to
25Hoess, as they were in different branches..." I will not
26bother to read that. You are talking about the material

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 1presented by the Allies at Nuremberg, I suppose, are you?
 2"There is no trace on the Allied aerial photographs
 3either of such burning operations or of the pits
 4themselves. Perhaps for security reasons, the Allies made
 5no attempt to introduce these highly detailed aerial
 6photographs of Auschwitz in this or the later war crimes
 7trial".
 8     Those are probably including some of the
 9photographs we looked at earlier in this trial, are they
10not, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The aerial photographs helped in particular with
12secrecy by the Americans and the British after the war.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, the footnote there is 34, and you will find that
14footnote on the next following page in this little clip of
15documents. At the bottom of the page, I am afraid the
16page has lost its number.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Pages 4 and 5.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is page 353 of the book. You write: "Nor did
19they (that is Allies) introduce other compelling evidence
20about Auschwitz, for example, the testimony of SS
21Sturmbannfuhrer Kurt Almeyer". In fact I think he is
22called Hans Almeyer, is he not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- "who had for several weeks acted as deputy Kommandant
25of Auschwitz. Almeyer was initially as incoherent as
26Hoess under interrogation by the British in Norway and

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 1England. The memoirs and manuscripts which he pencilled
 2in the Kensington Interrogation centre commanded by
 3Lieutenant Colonel Scotland also displayed an increasing
 4precision with each week that passed. The final
 5manuscript (or fair copy) signed by Almeyer was pencilled
 6in British Army style with all proper names in block
 7letters. Almeyer was extradited by the British to
 8Poland and hanged."
 9     If you write the words "compelling evidence",
10are you being sarcastic?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is compelling. It is very important. I have always
12been puzzled why that evidence was not introduced at
13Nuremberg, unless perhaps the experts at Nuremberg said
14this will harm us more than it helps us because of the
15figures.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many people were tried at Nuremberg for the sorts of
17crimes alleged to have been committed at Auschwitz and
18Birkenhau?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     At the principal trial there were 22 Defendants and in the
20subsequent actions, there were 12 subsequent actions with
21the United States, people of the United States against
22individual groups.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many of the 22 pleaded guilty?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     None of them.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Were they all convicted?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Two were acquitted.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was the evidence of, for example, Heinrich Tauber used at
 2Nuremberg?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I do not know, is the answer to that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. I just want to come back to one thing on this.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you leave that, I am a bit puzzled,
 6Mr Irving. Can you help me? I had got the impression
 7that you really thought that Almeyer's account was not
 8worthless but really not worth a great deal because of the
 9inaccuracy.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It is questionable material, but obviously, if you read
11the whole file, this was a man who was in a position to
12know. He is an important character, and I am surprised
13that they did not introduce either his statements or call
14him as a witness.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If it is questionable, why do you describe it in your
16Nuremberg book as compelling?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is compelling evidence which needs to be examined. It
18is compelling evidence that should have been before the
19court if they were looking at these atrocities. It is one
20of the oddities of the Nuremberg War Crimes trial that
21Auschwitz was hardly mentioned. The prosecution of crimes
22against humanity was left to the French and the Russian
23prosecutors, and the actual events in Auschwitz were very
24skimpily touched upon. The purpose of this footnote, my
25Lord, is to bring the attention of the Almeyer file to the
26historical community, to say there is this material, here

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