Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 175

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    But, you see, Mr Irving, before ever having analysed it,
 1suggesting in this letter that Almeyer's account was
 2beaten out of him by the British under the charge of the
 3notorious Lieutenant Colonel Scotland, are you not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I take it you have never heard of Lieutenant Colonel
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, will you answer my question?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have. I know who Lieutenant Colonel Scotland is
 8and I know all about the Kensington Cage in which the
 9prisoners were tortured.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I dare say you have. I am not the least bit
11interested in Colonel Scotland. Please answer my
12question. Before you have analysed these notes or
13compared them with the corpus of evidence on Auschwitz,
14you have already begun to suggest that they were beaten
15out of it?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The papers are found in the files of Lieutenant Colonel A
17Scotland which were seized from him by the British
18Government after the war. Almeyer was held finally in the
19London prison cage, which was Colonel Scotland's outfit,
20before he was turned over to the Nuremberg authorities.
21As his questioning proceeded, starting in Norway and then
22ending up in England because he was captured in Norway,
23his accounts became more lurid. The final accounts in his
24file are written in British Army style with all place
25names and proper nouns written in capital letters with all
26that that implies, in handwriting, in pencil.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But Mr Rampton's question, I think, was
 2suggesting this to you -- I am just going to ask it, if I
 3may -- that in a way you are putting the cart before the
 4horse jumping to the conclusion -- this is the
 5question ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- that because the Almeyer account was found in what you
 8describe as the London Cage, it, therefore, followed that
 9the account that he gives is worthless?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. What I am saying is because it gets
11progressively more lurid, because the numbers increase
12from report to report, and because it ends up written in
13traditional British Army style on British Army notepaper,
14in pencil with all the place names and proper nouns
15written in capital letters, one is entitled to draw
16certain conclusions from the physical appearance of this
17file, particularly when one associates it with the name of
18the notorious Colonel Scotland.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Have you ever seen a police interview with a
20witness, Mr Irving -- a record, a handwritten record, of a
21police interview with a witness, Mr Irving?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I think there have been references to them in various
23Courts of Appeal, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. Have you ever actually seen the record of
25a police interview? I am talking about the days before
26they were tape recorded and later typed, transcribed.

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 1Have you ever seen a record of an interview in a Police
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know perfectly well it is common form that poor old
 5officer Bobby laboriously writes out what the witness is
 6saying, and then when he comes to a name he always puts it
 7in capital letters?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     But is he writing out what the witness is saying or is he
 9writing down something and saying to the witness, "No sign
10here, please. This is what you said"?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is not just the notorious Colonel Scotland, it is
12the notorious Scotland Yard, is it?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you dragged them in. I did not mention them.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Come on, Mr Irving, the fact that it is written in pencil
15with the names in capitals tells us nothing.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, it indicates clearly that he is doing
17precisely what he is told to at the dictate of the British
18Army officers who, undoubtedly, had ways of doing their
19job, they had ways of making people talk, and I have no
20criticism whatsoever of that. We won the war and these
21are the methods we used to win the war. But to use these
22same documents that we won the war with to write history
23from is, I think, indicative of the problems that we are
24having in the courtroom today. Because you yourself have
25admitted, your expert witnesses have admitted, that
26Almeyer frequently made wrong statements in his report.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, he did. In fact, he gave his first account in
 2Norway, did he not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am told, and you probably will not know because you have
 5never studied it, but in fact I am told that his most
 6explicit and detailed account was given in Norway.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Not with these numbers, as I said in my letters to
 8Mr Weber and also Mr Philip on the same day.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     His significance is not numbers, is it? His significance
10is procedure at Auschwitz, is it not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that right, Mr Irving?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, I was not listening. I was just checking this
13other letter I wrote on that day. I am not sure if it is
14in the file or not.
15 MR RAMPTON:     If there is one in German, I am going to ask you
16about it. It is Karl Philip.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will ask you about that in a moment. The significance
19of Almeyer for the record in so far as he has significance
20is not the numbers that he gives, but the description that
21he gives of how they killed the people at Auschwitz, is it
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Even there, if my memory is correct, he gets it wrong.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, what is the answer to the question and
25then carry on about whether he gets it right or wrong.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He describes gassing procedures, this is true, but, of

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 1course -----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But the question, Mr Irving -- do focus on the question --
 3is that the significant thing about Almeyer's account is
 4not the number that he gives of the Jewish prisoners who
 5were gassed, but the description he gives of the way in
 6which they were grassed. That is the question.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is the question.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you say whether you agree or disagree
 9with it?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If you tell me what the description is that he gave?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Let me tan an example, the middle of page 262 of
12the transcript, as it where, that appears in van Pelt. It
13corresponds very roughly with what SS Untersturmfuhrer
14Broad tells us:
15     "In the time that followed some three to four
16gassing were undertaken in the old crematorium. These
17always occurred in evening hours. In the morgue were two
18or three air vents and medical orderlies wearing gas masks
19should blue cyanide gas into these" ----
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Now, which crematorium are we talking about? Crematorium
21number ----
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is crematorium (i) at Auschwitz 1 at the stammlager.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     About which, unfortunately, we have not asked the
24Professor very much in his evidence.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you did not.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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