Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 175

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 1 < (The witness stood down)
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, where shall I put this clip?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     In tab 4 of K2, the second Auschwitz file.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Immediately after page 49?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I would think so. In due course I am going to
 6sort mine into chronological order.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So further cross-examination of Mr Irving
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
10 < MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
11 Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I have two things which I wish to say here from the box,
13my Lord, if I may?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     One goes to yesterday, the letter, you remember, from the
16man who had been in an Aufraumungs Kommando, do you
17remember, and who had had knowledge of 30,000 records of
1830,000 in Dresden.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dresden, yes?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Back on Dresden. I just want to draw attention to the
21fact that the letter was dated sometime in 1965, four
22years after the book was written. That is a reference to
23page 538 of the Evans report.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I provided to your Lordship a copy of the actual
26order of the day which was missing from the bundle,

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 1and ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The Tagesbefehl?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, and I have provided you with an English
 4translation of it.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you very much.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     And in view of the fact that the Defence, at least in
 7their catalogue, relied on a letter that Mr Kimber wrote
 8to me, which I complained of as being prejudicial, I
 9have put in the clip for your Lordship the reply that
10I sent to him.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just pause a moment. The Tagesbefehl we ought to put
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not really add or subtract anything from the case,
14but your Lordship should really have a copy of the
15document we spent most of yesterday talking about.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I quite agree. Mr Rampton, where would it go?
17 MR RAMPTON:     This ...
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the genuine one?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. This was the fake one.
20 MR RAMPTON:     If you look on the second page, my Lord, you will
21see it has the ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know whether there actually ever was a genuine
23one. I telephoned with Mr Bergander in Berlin this
24morning, and he said that the man who gave him the
25so-called genuine one had copies of both.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think page 14A, is that right?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The other only little bundle I have gave your Lordship
 2this morning was ----
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just pause a moment, and let us get this into the right
 4place. Is that right? It is a question of where it goes
 5in the chronological sequence otherwise it gets lost.
 6Come on, we are wasting time.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I have not got my Dresden file here so I
 8am afraid I cannot help.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, can Miss Rogers find out where it should
11 MR RAMPTON:     Can we sort it out?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The only other thing I gave your Lordship was just five
13photographs of the Goebbels diary so you know what we are
14talking about when we come on to the Goebbels matter.
15That is the boxes and so on that they came in.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
17 MR RAMPTON (To the witness):     Mr Irving, Hans Almeyer, I think
18you first discovered him in June 1992?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it was June 2nd 1992, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your diary entry ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     June 3rd.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- is 3rd, so it would be yesterday, would it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your diary entry reads -- you can see it if you like, we
25have it here -- "Later at PRO all day". This is what
26happened on 2nd. "Finished reading file of interrogations

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 1and MS manuscript by one SS officer, Hans Almeyer, a high
 2Auschwitz official. Once again, like Gerstein, his
 3reports grow more lurid as the months progress. I wonder
 4why? Beaten like Hoess or was he finally telling the
 5truth? A disturbing two hours anyway." Do you remember
 6that entry?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Very clearly, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I think there is a document you should look at. I am
 9afraid, my Lord, I have no idea which file it comes from.
10It is a letter written by Mr Irving on 4th June to
11Mr Marcellus?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     "Dear Tom".
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The whole clump should go into L1 at tab 5, if it is empty
14which it should be.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1, this is nothing to do with Dresden, is
17 MR RAMPTON:     No, this is to do with Auschwitz actually, but it
18has much more to do -- I mean, it is indirectly to do with
19Auschwitz because Almeyer was there for a time. I do not
20remember how long, about nine months, I think, perhaps a
21bit longer. No, it is the way in which Mr Irving handles
22this information that may be of importance. So that is
23why L1 is a what file?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dresden.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It has "Hungary" in front, so it can have Almeyer
26at the back. So long as they go where Miss Rogers says,

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 1my Lord, then the index will be of use, otherwise it will
 3     (To the witness): Have you got that letter you
 4wrote on 4th June 1992 to Mr Marcellus and Mr Weber?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I was looking at them last night.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh good. That is all right. It is a fax, in fact.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They both would have received the whole text, is that
 9right, although the first part is addressed to
10Mr Marcellus and the second part to ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I think they worked in same warehouse, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am only going to read the part that is addressed to Mark
13Weber or does he calls himself "Weber"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     "Weber", I think.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who as Marcellus?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He was the Director of the Institute.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So he is IHR as well?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     IHR, yes and Mark Weber was some functionary there.
19 MR RAMPTON:     You write to Mark Weber: "Working in the Public
20Record Office yesterday, I came across the 200 page
21handwritten memoirs, very similar in sequence to the
22Gurstein report versions of an SS officer, Almeyer, who
23was virtually Hoess's deputy. They have just been opened
24for research. He was held in a most brutal British prison
25camp, the London Cave (the notorious Lieutenant Colonel A
26Scotland)". Then you write: "These manuscripts are going

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