Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 175

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Well, sorry, I do have some by way of
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You may want some re-examination.
 4     < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we take that last point first? Can you take page 1,
 6please? In the bottom left-hand corner of the page is a
 7column what looks a bit like names?
 8 MR IRVING:     It is a distribution list.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you, Mr Irving, but I am asking the witness
10questions. "Verteiler", do you see that?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the last name on that might be "Jahrling", might it?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, that is Jahrling. So Jahrling got a copy of this
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the point you have made, that is the
16only indication of who signed it available to the person
17who did the Auschwitz. So they put "gezeichnet" by
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Do you notice, please on page 4 a signature
21over a Sturmbannfuhrer?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whose signature is that?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is Bischoff's signature.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What about page 7 over the same word Sturmbannfuhrer?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is not Bischoff's signature, but it was ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Somebody has written "signed Bischoff"?
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, what we see here is we see that there is a little
 3note on the lower corner, the lower on page 7, it says Fur
 4die Richtigkeit der Asbchrift, which says, this is
 5Pollock, I think it is Pollock, SS Untersturmfuhrer, and
 6so Pollock now has put the name of Bischoff, signed in his
 7own handwriting Bischoff's name, since we are dealing here
 8with an Asbchrift. So in some way Pollock has done by
 9hand what in some way occurred in page No. 2 which is
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is only one other thing I need to ask you about and
12it is this. Mr Irving seems to take the point, if I have
13understood it, that if the reference number is typed
14rather than handwritten, one must expect to find the word
15"Abschrift" on top of the document. Can you look at page
163? Is there "Abschrift" on top of the document?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, that not Abschrift.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And is the reference number typed or handwritten?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The reference number is typed.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And at page 6 we see Abschrift and a typed reference
21number, but what about page 10?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Page 10, it was typed and it was corrected by hand.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And there is no Abschrift on top of it?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, there is no Abschrift.
25 MR IRVING:     It is not actually a letter register number there;
26it is the file number.

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     [German].
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Well, this is the third or fourth example so
 3perhaps the point is made. What about page 13?
 4 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Page 13, it is typed.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is typed and there is no "Abschrift" on top of it?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, thank you.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you the same question, Professor,
 9that I asked you when you gave evidence yesterday which is
10whether the points that have been put to you this morning
11raise something of a doubt in your mind about the
12authenticity of this document?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, it does not.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The point about the year not being included, is there
15anything in that?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I think it is a good observation, but what we see also
17here, you see if we look at this Moscow, this Moscow
18document, what we see that the numbers were actually typed
19in later. It seems to be that there is a -- it is a
20slightly different - also when we look at the persons, it
21seems they may made up first the letter and that
22ultimately they were -- this letter was drafted and the
23numbers were put in after some kind of final
24consultation. It is a very marked difference with the
25second copy with Domburg. It seems to be that the final
26numbering, the number, was brought in later and I can

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 1quite imagine that there was a slip occurred at that
 3 MR IRVING:     May I enquire on what basis you say that the
 4numbers were typed in later?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It seems that if we look at the way, if we look at, for
 6example, No. 340 personen, the 340 seems to be almost done
 7slightly sharper than "persona". If we can compare that
 8to 1943 on top, I do not know, I mean, but it seems to be
 9that it is -- that my sense would be that they were added
10later, that there was a first draft made, and especially
11if we look at the "31550/" in the brieftagebuch number,
12again the slash seems to come very close to the zero,
13almost as if they put it back in the typewriter and put in
14the numbers.
15     Now, it is also possible, of course, that they
16had cleaned their numbers. You know, these typewriters,
17these manual typewriters, they would get very messy at a
18certain moment and especially as in Auschwitz they were
19reusing the same, how do you call it, ribbon constantly
20because there was a great lack of it. They get very
21smudgy at a certain moment, and also the letters get very
22smudgy, so maybe they had cleaned the numbers to be
23absolutely certain that these numbers would be clear.
24I cannot say. But my sense would be, if you look at the
25brieftagebuch number, that it is possible that they were,
26that it was added later, also because it goes left of the

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 1original, how do you call it ----
 2 MR IRVING:     The margin.
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The margin, and in the other things it seems to be in
 4generally on the margin. So that also indicates that it
 5was generally added later. So, you know, you cannot be
 6absolutely sure about it. But, it seems to be that it was
 7not regular that the person was typing that heading and at
 8that moment was actually putting on all the information.
 9So since the information was put in later, maybe it is
10simply the 43 slipped.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     But it is speculation. We cannot be certain about it.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you very much. Can I give you back your original?
14I am ashamed to say I have made a slight mark on it, not
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     You can keep it if you want because I have a copy now.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But this is the original?
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is the original copy from Auschwitz. That is why it
19is stamped. If you want to keep it, since it has a stamp
20on it?
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     All right. Thank you. Can I say one or more thing? On
22the back of it, of that copy you have, actually has the
23actual file in which it is. It says BW34. It is on the
24back, so that is the actual file in which that document
25can be found.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.

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