Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 175

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The Jewish population disproportionately controlled all
 2the lucrative professions". I put a marker down. I am
 3not going to argue about it now.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     We are just going to argue about the word "all", are we?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Read the report, Mr Irving.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, can I suggest that Professor Evans also reads what
 7President Roosevelt said about precisely the same
 8situation in Germany when he said, in fact he made the
 9completely impossible statement that if he had been the
10Germans he would have acted in exactly the same way
11because of this disproportionate, this imbalance.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know about Professor Roosevelt.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     President Roosevelt.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry. Everybody in this court is a professor except
15you and me, Mr Irving. "He was aided in this endeavour by
16the fact that his chief opponent there, Berlin's Deputy
17Police Chief who acted as though he was police chief, he
18was a real police chief, referred to him as being a chief,
19Dr Bernhard Weiss, a Jew, Weiss looked so much like a
20Jewish character, but his photographs did not need to be
21retouched by the Nazis. He was stereotypically semitic in
22feature, short with rounded ears and hooked nose and
23wearing spectacles."
24 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a description I took out of one of the
25contemporary Western newspapers I believe.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are not to take that as being any kind of endorsement

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 1by you, are we, Mr Irving?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No. There is actually a very good book on Bernhard Weiss
 3written by a Professor of history Cologne University whose
 4name escapes me, and he made precisely that point, that
 5because of his appearance he was unfortunately doomed to
 6become a target of the Nazis.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He deserved to be persecuted by Dr Goebbels.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not the words I used, Mr Rampton. But this is
 9precisely the reason why I went to great lengths to locate
10his daughter in London and tried to obtain a different
11photograph of her father than the one the Nazis used.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have one more reference I think in this, maybe more than
13one I do not know, in this file K4, tab 4, page 33 at the
14bottom of the clip, my Lord.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     We are going to go out with a whimper.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I doubt that, Mr Irving. It is not my style. We are not
17going to go out with a whimper. Page 17 at the top. This
18is you speaking to, and I will tell you who you are
19speaking to, somebody or people at Bow in London on 29th
20May 1992. You say: "I had a lot of trouble with Simon
21Wiesenthal yesterday, and I remember that three or four
22years ago I had the unnerving experience sitting in my
23rental car after I had been speaking in London, not London
24England but London Ontario, which is about 200 miles west
25Toronto and I had driven back to Toronto that night, the
26speaking was very exhausting and I got back in Toronto at

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 1half past 2.00 on this November morning and as I drove up
 2something street in Toronto, which is the main artery of
 3Toronto, I pulled up at the traffic lights and glaring at
 4me from the car next to me in the traffic lights was Simon
 5Wiesenthal himself, his face hideously contorted by
 6rage". So, evidently, Mr Irving, some things make him
 7cross too. "I got a real shock because he looked into me
 8through my driver's window and there was Mr Wiesenthal,
 9this hideous, leering, evil face glaring at me, then
10I realised it wasn't Simon Wiesenthal, it was a Halloween
11mask [Applause].
12     "Now, those of who you have seen Mr Wiesenthal
13will know what I'm talking about. Mrs Wiesenthal who has
14seen Mr Wiesenthal many times, of course, and she says to
15him at Halloween, 'Simon, please keep the mask on, you
16look so much nicer with it on'". That is just pure racist
17abuse, is it not, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, the word "Jew" is not mentioned there
19from start to finish. The racism is in your mind,
20Mr Rampton. This is a reference to a person who is not
21one of the world's most attractive people. He is known
22for not being particularly attractive. Whether he is
23Jewish or not does not play any part at all.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, really! Will you turn back to ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     If I pick on any other name and put that name to this,
26then it would never have occurred to suggest, if I pick on

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 1any other race, but because Mr Wiesenthal is apparently
 2Jewish, I do not know, but he presumably is Jewish,
 3therefore, you say it is anti-Jewish. It is not. It is
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, now we are going to end with a bang. Turn
 6back, please, to the top of page 16, will you?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I have found governments being involved in trying to
 9silence me in Canada and South Africa and Australia and
10I never used to believe in the existence of an
11international Jewish conspiracy". Pause there. Who is
12Simon or Simon Wiesenthal? Who is Simon Wiesenthal?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     He is an Austrian who has no connection at all with the
14Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is he Jewish?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I presume he is, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, and so now we are going to see the context in which
18you put his Halloween mask. "I never used to believe in
19the existence of an international Jewish conspiracy, and
20I am not even sure even now if there is an international
21Jewish conspiracy. All I know is that people are
22conspiring internationally against me and they do turn out
23mostly to be" -- in fact, the word must have been "Jews",
24must it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. It does not say.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, come on. Look at the syntax of the sentence.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     OK, let us assume it was "Jews", yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Applause, applause"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But that is precisely what we are going to be
 4demonstrating to the court in the next few days, how much
 5this international endeavour has been, unfortunately,
 6guided by the self-appointed leaders of that community.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you are going to attempt that, you will have to give me
 8notice. It is no part of your pleading and I shall have
 9something to say about it because it has nothing to do
10with Mrs Lipstadt.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you will see -- oh, and indeed it does and that is,
12undoubtedly, the reason why I have put in bundle E global.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that is a digression. We may have to
14come back to that.
15 MR RAMPTON:     A digression. But that inspiring observation,
16Mr Irving, was greeted with applause. Do you see that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know why?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably because they thought it was funny or that they
20were applauding the fact that I said there was no
21international Jewish conspiracy or because -- I do not
22know. What is your theory?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are very pleased that, in fact -- it is another of
24your clever, little sarcastic racist jokes about the Jews
25-- though you do not know there is an international
26Jewish conspiracy, it turns out most of the conspirators

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