Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 175

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    They wanted their final pound of flesh. Although he had
 1and they frog marched him in handcuffs although he was a
 2free and innocent man. What better description of it is
 3there than that? I repeat, these people are not above
 4criticism just because they happen to be Jews, believe
 5me. They are beneath contempt for it. They tried to hang
 6him for political reasons.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the next page 51, I do not know what this issue is, May
 81995 I think, my Lord, this is page 26 at 1.7 (c). You
 9are writing something about Wiesenthalers Zap Jap Crap,
10whatever you mean by that. This is full of stuff about
11Israel and Jews.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Either read the whole article or do not make any comments
13on it.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not the least bit interested in, as it were, your
15themes in your articles, Mr Irving. I am Interested in
16your terminology. That is why I drew attention to your
17use of the word "shylocks".
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Zap, Jap or Crap, which is the word?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I now look at the bottom of the right-hand column of this
20article and I see this: "Overshadowed by the gloating
21vulpine figure of Rabbi Cooper himself."
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see this.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is right at the bottom right-hand corner.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It has a 3 against it.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     A 3?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The right-hand column right at the bottom.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     "The gloating vulpine figure", does that remind
 3you of any sort of propaganda put out at any time in
 4recent European history, Mr Irving?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No. It sounds rather Churchillian to me.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got your Goebbels book there?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever read Churchill's speeches about Adolf
 8Hitler? Exactly the same kind of language.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Neither of them is on trial here.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     August 1941, a magnificent speech that Churchill made,
11oddly enough shortly after he had read the first police
12decodes of the crimes on the Eastern Front. He used
13exactly this kind of terminology.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you tried to lead us down that road before.
15I tried to suggest that Mr Churchill might have had some
16reason to be beastly about nice Mr Hitler.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you asked for an answer and you do not like the
18answer you get.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That reminds you of Churchill, does it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     You asked me about the language.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I did.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And I am telling you that it is Churchillian language.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. Now would you get your Goebbels' book please, if you
24have it to hand, and turn to after page 332. Sorry,
25I will have to count the pages. I will count them as
26double: 1, 2, 3, 4. On the left-hand side page there is

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 1a picture of Hitler wearing what looks like a bathrobe in
 2the bottom of the picture or it might be a dust coat, I do
 3not know, with a hat on.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the right-hand side there are some pictures with the
 6heading "Isidor's Torment"?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "From the moment of his arrival in Berlin on November 28th
 9Dr Goebbels wages a remorseless war against the city's
10police chief, Dr Bernhard Weiss. Weiss sues him forty
11times, mostly for calling him Isidor", of course his name
12was not Isidor. "Nazi caricaturist Mjolnir portrays him
13as a donkey skating on thin ice. After a judge rules the
14cartoon defamatory, Goebbels' newspaper announces: Judge
15agrees donkey does look like Isidor."
16     I do not know what that is doing in that book.
17Perhaps you would tell us?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     In this book?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You have put a picture of Dr Weiss or whatever he
21 A. [Mr Irving]     If you have read the book ----
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was chief of police, was he not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure his Lordship has read the book, although may not
24have. Goebbels' arch enemy during the years when he was
25Gauleiters of Berlin before the Nazis came to power, was
26in fact Bernhard Weiss who Goebbels mocked and called

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 1"Isidor". He raged this remorseless campaign against him
 2in the newspapers he controlled resulting in no fewer than
 340 libel actions brought against him by the police chief,
 4and this is a page devoted to that particular episode.
 5Goebbels was obviously completely incorrigible. He had
 6utter contempt for the law courts in Berlin. He repeated
 7the libels. Weiss fled to England after the Nazis came to
 8power, and I believe his daughter is still alive in North
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     She may still be. We knew that she was in 1994.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I approached her to try to obtain a more flattering
12photograph of her father.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I just read what you wrote, it saves us getting out
14yet another file. This is revelations from the Goebbels'
15diary in the Historical Review for January/February -- no,
16I am reading from the wrong thing -- it is 1995. My Lord,
17the reference is K3, tab 18, pages 7 to 8. Mr Irving,
18I expect you will want to look at the full text.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure we can take it if you just read it out.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You publish a picture of Dr Weiss or Mr Weiss or
21Superintendent Weiss or whatever he was.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I went to some pains to try to get a better
23photograph of him.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write this, the right-hand column on page 7: "Isidor
25Weiss", and you retain Goebbels' nomenclature and you put
26the two quotes round the name.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "When Goebbels arrived in Berlin as Gauleichter in 1926 he
 3was confronted by a city with 179,000 Jews, one third of
 4all Jews in Germany and he made use of this fact. The
 5Berlin population already receding because of the presence
 6of these Jews. In the coming years Goebbels repeatedly
 7explained to foreign diplomats that the problem there was
 8the usual one in which the Jewish population
 9disproportionately controlled all the lucrative
10professions. This rankled the Berlin's non-Jewish
11population of course and Goebbels, whether deliberately or
12by instinct, zeroed in on this as a wound that he could
13work on to promote the Nazi cause."
14     You seem to accept in that paragraph that
15Goebbels was right in thinking that the professions were
16disproportionately controlled by the Jews?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it was not just Goebbels; the German Federal
18Statistical Office has provided me with the figures.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am putting a marker down because this is something which
20you are going to have to argue with Professor Evans
22 A. [Mr Irving]     What the German Statistical Office told me?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. About what the fact was.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Which fact?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The one you have stated here.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the disproportionate ----

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