Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 175

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- after you have quoted Heim Burman, you say:
 3"Commenting on the squabbles that had already broken out
 4between rival factions ... and the anti-defamation league,
 5all of whom want their pound of Swiss flesh." Whose words
 6are those?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably Bermont. I have quoted Bermont.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not in quotes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Bermont wrote a savage leading article in the Jewish
10Chronicle. I have never seen an article written -- if a
11non-Jew had written that he would be described as being
12viciously anti-Semitic.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a reference to the unsympathetic portrait of Jewish
14nature presented by William Shakespeare in the Merchant of
15Venice, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is your reference and not Mr Bermont's, is it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Whether it is mine or Mr Bermont's I do not know, but
19placed where that it is in a paragraph which starts with
20Bermont and ends with Bermont, I am pretty certain it
21comes from Bermont.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we go back to the paragraph on the left-hand side of
23the page?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say: "All the elements of anti-Semitic stereotype are

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The stereotype.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know. I have heard what you said about it. What I want
 5to know is why the rest of it is there: "The cosmopolitan
 6rootless millionaire bereft of any local patriotism".
 7Where does that stereotype come from?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is part of the stereotype.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is, is it?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In whose mind?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is part of the general anti-Semitic stereotype of the
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is you are busy promoting here, are you not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I am not quoting in fact -- shall I bring in the
16article that Bermont wrote? I am pretty sure I can find
17it or get it from his web site.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has all this stuff, does it, about ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The only thing I admit which Bermont did not write was
20where I said that the weddings rings may have come off the
21lifeless fingers of the Hamburg victims or the Dresden air
22raid victims, because I happen to know that our witness
23Hans Voight collected three buckets of wedding rings off
24the fingers of lifeless victims of the Dresden air raids,
25and they went to the Reichsbank and they were filmed in
26the Reichsbank subsequently for the Nuremberg trial.

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 1I have the record of the Nuremberg trial officers who
 2said: "Unfortunately we cannot use that film of the gold
 3rings found in the Reichsbank because we have no evidence
 4it came from concentration camps".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you are saying part of the stereotype is
 6true and part is not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, most of the stereotype is untrue, but this is what
 8the Jewish people, the community, rightly objected, that
 9they have gained this stereotype somehow and Bermont has
10written this warning editorial in the Jewish Chronicle
11saying: Here we go again, we are just helping create it
12again because a few self-appointed leaders of the Jewish
13community, whether they are Abraham Foxman or Charles
14Edgar Bronson, or whoever it is, are going about this
15ill-advised campaign against the Swiss, which is just
16helping to reinforce the ugly stereotype.
17 MR RAMPTON:     While we are in this volume, Mr Irving can we just
18pick up that reference to the pound of flesh, please?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It seems to be one of your themes, if I may say so. Page
2150 of the same volume, my Lord. This is page 23 at the
22top of the clip. I am going to read from the clip,
23because my copy of the article has been sliced off by the
24machine. There is a paragraph on the right-hand side
25beside the box in the middle which begins "Finally". Do
26you have that?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Will Jon Dem Janjung now sue his tormentors" and it is
 3all about ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- that man.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the most shocking episode in American judicial
 7history I think.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, that he got acquitted?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     He was finally acquitted on the orders of the Israeli
10judges, except he had been framed and set up by eleven
11false eyewitnesses, as one man identified him, and the
12Israeli Supreme Court set him free.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am tempted to say "so what" but if I
14do you will produce a life size portrait of Mr Dem Janjung
15I dare say. Really, Mr Irving, you did not mean that.
16Page 23, my Lord.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You do not always get the answers you need, Mr Rampton.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 23 of the little clip.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I did not ask you about Mr Dem Janjung. That was
20one of your offerings, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You asked me about the paragraph.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then you gave us a long lecture about something which
23has nothing to do with this case.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps you should not have paused.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you have actually written is this: "The world will
26not easily forget how, even when" ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     "Even when acquitted after all".
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not give me another pitiful lecture about Mr Dem
 3Janjung, please?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     You are just going to read what I wrote.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Dem Janjung was detained in custody by his enemies for
 6two more weeks while they thumbed through their sweaty
 7manuals looking for some way to crush him that they might
 8have overlooked. Nor how when they failed again these
 9shylocks cheated on their pray, frog marched him to his
10plane home to freedom still in handcuffs like a convicted
12     I quite agree that one can take the view that it
13was a disgraceful prosecution. The fact that the
14prosecution was made by Israelis, who one must assume were
15Jewish, do you think that that justifies the use of
16language like this?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think these particular lawyers are above
18criticism, and that was a criticism I chose to level at
19them. I think they are below, beneath criticism, these
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why the shylocks though?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Because they wanted -- you know the Shakespearian
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     They wanted their final pound of flesh. Although he had
26been acquitted by the Supreme Court they kept him in jail

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