Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 175

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    I will bring the photographs in and you can satisfy
 1yourself. I have quite a folder of them.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the plain language of a plain unvarnished racist?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary. This is the language of somebody who can
 4see the evidence with his own eyes, the people who he has
 5got to put up with, the people who are harassing everybody
 6in that street for two days, being held back by the forces
 7of law and order.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I will give you one clue as to the conditions of terror we
10were living in, my family.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, I am going to tell it to you. We had basket,
13a Moses basket in the corner of my drawing room with a
14length of wire rope so I could lower my child out of the
15window in case my house was set on fire. That is the
16conditions we were living under at the time I made that
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course. I understand that.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It cannot be very nice. I am sure this very seldom
20happens to leading counsel.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will not respond to that either. Mr Irving, I want to
22look at some other little things that you said, if I may.
23Page tab 10 of this file, please. Page, I hope this is
24going to be right, page 57.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am in the wrong file. Which file are you

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is K4, my Lord. You are in the right file, my
 2Lord. I am in the wrong one. I meant K4.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this in the clip?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Give me the reference?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     It is the bottom of page 24 and the top of page 25
 7of the clip. This is from your publication Action Report,
 8Mr Irving, is it not, for July 1997?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     What page are we looking at, 24?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     57.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 57.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tab 10, page 57. It is the column: "Going for Gold".
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read the first paragraph as your Lordship has not
15got that in the clip, but it does no matter. It is very
17     "Mr Winston Churchill is rumoured to have
18observed that he could listen to arguments about the
19merits of different breeds of tea with complete
20disinterest. Action Report finds it can view any dispute
21between New York politicians, lawyers, wealthy Swiss
22bankers and the international Jewish community with the
23same lack of passion. What is remarkable is that this
24community have considered it worth taking such a long-term
25risk, possibly evening sowing the seeds of future
26Holocaust in the name of short-term gain in gold. All the

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 1elements of anti-Semitic stereotype are there. The
 2cosmopolitan, rootless millionaire, bereft of any local
 3patriotism, flinging his unpopular perception, ill-gotten
 4gains outer head as he escapes from the country where he
 5has briefly rested. The demand for 'unclaimed Gold'
 6regardless of whose it is", note those words, Mr Irving,
 7"regardless of whose it is, whether wedding rings eased
 8off the lifeless fingers of Hamburg or Dresden air raid
 9casualties for identification purposes and stored by the
10bucket in the Reichsbank vaults or dental fillings ripped
11out of the bodies of gas chamber victims by SS dentists,
12somehow immune to the Zyklon fumes which had dispatched
13the others." That is July 1997.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is this reference then to the gas chamber victims and
16the Zyklon-B fumes?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The mask slipped again, has it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but we saw in the drawings that have been shown to us
20by Professor van Pelt the gold aubeit, the rooms where the
21smelting furnace was contained.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It is well-known that in the mortuaries they ripped the
24gold teeth out of the victims.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But, Mr Irving, "these gold teeth", according to you,
26"came from the bodies of gas chamber victims taken by SS

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 1dentists somehow immune to the Zyklon fumes which had
 2dispatched the victims."
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, this is one of the eyewitness statements that is
 4obviously baloney because they could not have gone in
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is it doing in this article, Mr Irving, by you in
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot quite understand the point you are making or the
 9question you are asking.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why are you making reference to this if you do not believe
11it to be true?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Why am I making reference to this if I do not believe to
13be true.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Why are you, a Holocaust denier in full fledged
15condition in 1997, making reference to dead people from
16the gas chambers having their teeth, gold teeth ripped out
17by the SS dentists?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     But I have just said, it is accepted by all parties that
19the Nazis gangsters stole the gold teeth from their
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Again you are dodging the point.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are dodging the gas chamber element.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship, can you rephrase the question for me so I
24can understand it?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. What Mr Rampton is putting to is that
26it sounds as if you are accepting in what you there say

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 1that there were indeed gas chamber victims who had their
 2gold fillings removed by SS dentists.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so, my Lord.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The whole tenor of that is supposed to be disbelieving to
 6the point of mockery, and the reason I say that is they
 7are helping to regenerate the ill-gotten stereotype of the
 8ugly greedy Jew. If you will carry on to the next
 9paragraph but one, you will see the source of that
10particular criticism by me. I freely admit to having
11stolen the criticism from Heim Bermont who is a very wise
12English writer indeed who wrote for the Jewish Chronicle
13and who interviewed me once. He made precisely the same
14criticism, that by helping to create or recreate this
15public perception, this public image, of the grab-all
16rich, wealthy Jew, they were generating fresh
17anti-Semitism with this gold campaign.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     And Heim Bermont went on to say that the truth is, as
20everybody knows, that most Jews are in fact not rich and
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We see in the middle of that, you draw our attention to
23it ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- in middle of that paragraph, two on, on the other side
26of the column ----

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