Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 175

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    I agree "necessary" is the wrong word. The point I am
 1just the question that why have all these nations found it
 2so easy to kill the Jews, why have all these nations found
 3it so easy to unburden themselves for their Jewish
 4population, for example the Slovaks and the Dutch and the
 5Hungarians and Romanians and so on, when the Nazis said
 6"Give us your Jews", all these surrounding countries
 7said, "Take them off us", that would have worried me if
 8I was a Jew. Also why the British and the Americans and
 9the other nations refused to accept the boat loads of
10Jews, like the famous episode with the St Louis, the ship
11laden with Jews, these kinds of things would have
12concerned me as a Jew. I would have wanted to know what
13is it, why do people not want to accept us, why do people
14not want to rescue us. I would have wanted to know that
15far more than I would have wanted to know the sordid story
16of who pulled the triggers. But maybe I am different from
17Goldhagen in that respect. He wants to look at the
18immediate effect and I would have wanted to look at the
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree that the word "necessary" is totally misplaced
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Indeed so. You used it, nonetheless, to a different
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not speaking, as you will have noticed, from the
26film, I am not speaking from a prepared script.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Any more than I am speaking from a prepared script now.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, do you have, only because I do not have a
 4transcript in the file, that clip of extracts which
 5I handed in this morning?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Do I have that clip of extracts?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, this little clip of extracts? If you do, could you
 8please turn to page 24 of it, to the extract marked 1.7/A
 9in a square bracket.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want you to look at the top of the page. There are some
12words in German in a square bracket which are said to come
13from a video cassette of your having said something
14entitled the: "Ich Komme Wieder" about 1994.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, rioters standing outside my home against whom the
16West End Police had to put up steel barricades, yes, very
17nice people.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you were not feeling in the best of moods
19because you had just lost your contract with the Sunday
20Times for the serialization of the Goebbels' Diary, had
21you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Not true. This is two years before that.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is not 1994?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     No. The contract with St Martins -- I am sorry, the St
25Martins Press contract was lost in April 1996.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, this is the Sunday Times contract.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The Sunday Times episode was, if this is referring to July
 21992, yes, the "Gas Irving" posters and so on.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am sure you were under pressure, as you are now,
 4reasons for stress.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, I would use exactly the same phrase now.
 6Anybody who comes ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us see what the phrase was because I have
 8not seen this before.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Let us see what you said: "The whole rabble", you
10read the German and then you can correct the translation
11if it is wrong: "The whole rabble, all the scum of
12humanities stand outside. Homosexuals, the gypsies the
13lesbians" ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a typical example of how objectionable it is to
15produce something out of context. Outside what? The
16answer is outside my family home at 3 a.m. in the morning
17we hear the police bringing the barricades. I get phone
18calls from the police say, "Mr Irving, if your home is
19invaded this is the emergency number you have to phone".
20I get a phone call from Scotland Yard saying, "Mr Irving,
21we need to come and photograph the inside of your apparent
22in case we have to come rescue because we have had secret
23intelligence about what they are going to do to you."
24This is the kind of nightmare I went through in July 1992,
25when I see the barricades going up outside my house during
26the middle of the night and my family says, "What's the

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 1sound?", and I say: "It's lorries unloading barricades
 2again. Tomorrow the scum are going to be outside again",
 3and here they are described.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now under stress, a perhaps little frightened, certainly
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not easily frightened but I get angry at this kind of
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, angry when under stress. Do you know the
 9expression, I am sure you do, which is sometimes used, it
10is Latin but it is not legal Latin so I can use it, in
11vino veritas?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you accusing me of drinking?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Please do not always try to fifth guess me. In vino
14veritas, what does it mean? It means that we sometimes
15get better truth from people when they are pickled.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     When they are drunk.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, in wine it means, in their cups.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not agree sometimes when a man is angry or under
20stress the mask may slip?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely why I prefer to carry on talking this
22evening so that his Lordship knows that I am talking from
23the heart.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I suggest this came directly from the heart, Mr Irving.
25This is when the mask slips. Mr Irving is under stress.
26He is angry. He thinks people are getting at him. He is

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 1feeling persecuted.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I think people are getting at me?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, what evidence does one need before one stops
 5thinking and starts realising?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He has got a grudge against the Sunday Times and some
 7people are causing a nuisance, and so what he says is
 8this: "The whole rabble, all the scum of humanity, stand
 9outside. The homosexuals, the gypsies, the lesbians", and
10now this is where you interrupted me, "the Jews, the
11criminals, the communists, the left-wring extremists, the
12whole commune stands there and has to be held back behind
13steel barricades for two days."
14     That is Mr Irving's true mind, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a literal description of who was visible on the
16other side of those barricades. Shall I show you the
17photographs? We can identify who they are, the banners
18they are holding, the placards, the leaflets they are
19holding out, the stickers they are putting on all the
20lampposts: Irving speaks Rostock burns. That is what
21I had to put with day after day.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are we going to see gypsies?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     They were there. They were there in the photographs. They
24were holding up placards saying "Gas Irving".
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, the sort of "Gay liberation wants Irving gassed"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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