Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 175

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you like a rest? You seem very enerve, if I can use
 2the French word.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I can carry on if you can.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, it occurred to me actually whilst
 5watching the film that you said you were up till 4 or 5
 6this morning. I am very concerned that it is a huge
 7physical strain on you and I would be perfectly happy if
 8you said you had had enough.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I can go as many rounds with Mr Rampton as he wishes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     You do not have to worry going rounds with me,
11Mr Irving. I have been doing this for 35 years. I am
12asking you genuinely. You seem rather rattled. Would you
13like a rest?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I am not rattled.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Rattled is the wrong word.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Whatever?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You have to accept the answers I give you in the spirit in
18which they are given.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are going to carry on.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Go to the top of page 18, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     If you are just trying to score cheap points from----
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, please, there is a lot of point
24scoring going on. Let us get on with the question and
26 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, what I am concerned about is that today

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 1of all days you seem quite incapable of answering my
 2questions. That is a waste of his Lordship's time and my
 3client's money.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Ask another one.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I will.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     These are comments for his Lordship to make rather than
 7for leading counsel, in my view. Can I draw your
 8attention to the final sentence of that paragraph that you
 9objected to?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is an interesting point. They go round the other way
12and they make life unbearable for those who try to analyse
13whatever happened, whatever it was. That is what I try to
14do. I try to analyse whatever happened, whatever it was.
15It is not an easy task, because you are constantly being
16accused of wrong motives.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Now, can we please go to the top of page 18 in the
18version you have there?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Here you cannot argue about laughter because it is written
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said, "I find the whole Holocaust story utterly
24boring. It goes on and on and on and they, that is the
25Jews, keep going on about the Holocaust because it is the
26only interesting thing that has happened to them in the

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 1last 3,000 years". Funny, isn't it?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that 95 per cent of the thinking public find the
 3Holocaust endlessly boring by now but they dare not say it
 4because they know it is politically incorrect.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The joke is in the sting in the tail. "It is the only
 6interesting thing that has happened to the Jews in the
 7last 3,000 years". Very funny, isn't it, Mr Irving?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, what other explanation is there for the fact that
 9that is all they ever go on about now?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It might very well be that----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Lots of wonderful things have happened to them in their
123,000 years. There have been the most incredible episodes
13in the Jewish history and yet all we hear from the movies,
14the television and the newspapers of late is the
15Holocaust, and people are thoroughly bored of it.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are, Mr Irving, no doubt, and you do not speak for
17anybody but yourself, I am sorry.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Maybe you stood in Oxford Street with a clip board taking
19a poll saying, "are you bored with the Holocaust yet?" My
20own perception, which is what I am giving here from this
21box, is that the people I speak to, who are intelligent
22people from academic and ordinary walks of life, say they
23are thoroughly fed up with it.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not know anything about it and you have managed to
25lecture for an hour about the detail of it.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     What, now?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, in this transcript. You went on for an hour.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been interesting to this audience because I had put
 3to them facts they did not know about, the code breaking,
 4about the aerial photographs, everything they have not
 5heard about on the established media I have been putting
 6to them. That is how I have held their attention.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I think may have been being put to you
 8and, if it was not, I will put it ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Question of taste.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Listen to my question.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is not a question of taste.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You said many times that you are not a
13Holocaust historian, and I understand that.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But you said you had to become one. I cannot remember and
16I have not got the reference, but when was it you told me
17that you decided you had to become a Holocaust historian?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I had to become one for this trial, my Lord, which means
19for the last three years I have wading around knee deep in
20matter and in files and in documents that I would never
21willingly and voluntarily have occupied myself with.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Was the speech in Tampa, Florida, in 1995?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It appears to me that you knew an awful lot about the
25Holocaust then.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     This is true because by that time there had been a lot of

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 1discussion about it in the newspapers, and material had
 2come my way. If people send you things about the decodes,
 3if people send you things about the aerial photographs, if
 4you are the Hitler historian that I was and people send
 5you material indicating, for example, the police decodes,
 6which have obviously now come to play a very important
 7part in the Hitler history, for example the episode around
 8November 30, December 1st 1941, you pick up this material
 9as you go along. But I certainly never knew as much then
10as I have learned in the course of this trial, and
11particularly from the very interesting remarks made by
12Professor van Pelt. When I read Professor van Pelt's book
13for the first time "In 1270" I wrote both to him and to
14Trevor Roper in fact in May 1997, saying the most
15extraordinary book on Auschwitz had been published, which
16was one of the first books I have read from cover to
17cover. That was the kind of interest I had, general
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. Mr Rampton, that was my
21 MR RAMPTON:     I find that helpful. Looking back on it now,
22Mr Irving, in the light of what you actually know as
23opposed to what you purported to know in October 1995,
24would you accept that almost everything that you told this
25audience about the facts of the Holocaust was wrong?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Some figures are wrong, I think.

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