Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 175

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     No doubt the organizers did.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, the organizers, Mr Irving. Really!
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     The people who had invited me there.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, the National Alliance.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is what you say but, unfortunately, you are
 6introducing no evidence and your witness you are
 7frightened to put on the cross-examination stand.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have seen the evidence on two tapes, Mr Irving.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, that is not sufficient. You have somebody, a
10member of the American Jewish Committee, who makes a
11written statement, who is not prepared to subject herself
12to cross-examination. I am prepared to subject myself to
13cross-examination week after week after week by you and
14none of your witnesses are prepared.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very kind of you considering that you brought this action,
16Mr Irving. We are all very grateful to you.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, if I may say so, that sort of
18comment is going to prolong matters.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I pass on to the actual text.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is a very fair statement to make, to draw
21attention to the fact that they are not presenting their
22witnesses for cross-examination.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a perfectly fair point to make and
24I will bear it in mind with all the witnesses who are not
25actually going into the witness box to be cross-examined,
26I can assure you.

.   P-126

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     In the circumstances I think Mr Rampton's sarcasm is not
 2called for.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stop the comments and get on with the
 4questions and answers.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I quite agree. I am sorry about that. Will
 6you turn, please, to the text of what we have just seen?
 7I have only a couple of questions about this. It has to
 8do with some of the things that you have said.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I draw attention first of all to the fact that there were
10familiar faces there, in other words people off my own
11mailing list are there. That is what the nature of the
12audience is.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There was a lot of laughter, was there not, at your
14tasteless jokes?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My what?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A lot of laughter at your tasteless jokes, Mr Irving.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I flatter myself that I am an accomplished speaker.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will not say what I was going to say. It would have
19been too obvious and rather cheap. Now, would you like to
20use the full text?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You mean there was laughter at the point where I said, "if
22it does not fit you must acquit"?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. There was laughter ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am drawing attention to where the laughter comes and of
25course the reference there is to the O J Simpson case.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, Mr Irving----

.   P-127

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are interrupting me. The reference was to the O J
 2Simpson case which had just ended two days earlier where
 3Johnny Cochrand had won the case by saying, "If it does
 4not fit, you must acquit."
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There was the first laughter. There was laughter all the
 6way through and I am going to draw attention to some of
 7the laughter. Some of it is noted not in that transcript,
 8in my transcript. I made some notes as I was going
 9through it. In particular, when you are dealing with the
10plan from Colindale, I think your page number is probably
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And over the page please.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     These opponents had tried the usual tactic of taking over
15half the audience and then rioting throughout my entire
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please be patient. In the top half of page 19, the man
18from Colindale -- I do not know how you knew he came from
19Colindale, I am bound to say.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us leave that on one side.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. You said to your affable audience in Tampa,
22"And he went berserk". Yes?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He said: "Are you trying to say that we are responsible
25for Auschwitz ourselves"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-128

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And I said: "Well, the short answer is yes", and at that
 2point I made a note on my transcript that there was really
 3quite loud laughter.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is funny that it is not on the transcript in
 5front of us when all the other laughter has been noted.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can go back to it, Mr Irving. I assure you it is
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not see quite what the point is that you are trying
 9to make.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is funny about ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am repeating an actual exchange that happened in
12Shrieveport, Louisiana, between these hecklers who had
13decided to disrupt a lecture which I was delivering and
14then the heckling subsided and their ring leader stood up
15and I engaged him in this debate. He said precisely the
16words that I quoted there, and I could have dodged the
17issue and said I do not want to get into that, but instead
18I met it head on and I said, "Well, the short answer would
19be yes, but there is a long answer. The short answer
20misses out everything between the alpha and the omega, all
21the intervening stages". It may be that it is an
22uncomfortable answer, it may be that it was not the answer
23they wanted to hear, but it is a question I had been
24wrestling with ever since I first became engaged with the
25Holocaust, how do crimes like this happen, and why do they

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you a completely different question,
 2Mr Irving. You know that I was. Again you dodge because
 3you do not like it. I asked you ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, you did not get to the question then.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was funny about what you said?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I disagree. I did not hear any laughter and, if there had
 7been laughter ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Assume for the sake of argument, because
 9I remember the laughter, assume there was laughter, what
10is funny about saying that the Jews are responsible for
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not the least bit funny.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not the least bit funny and, if the audience laughs,
15you saw precisely what my answer was, I do not see what
16relevance it has to me.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. Let us go up to the top of page 18.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I think probably it would be called nervous laughter
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh no, Mr Irving.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Nervous laughter, because they had never heard an answer
22as blunt as that followed then by the corollary which was
23to explain precisely what you mean between the yes ----
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now Mr Irving ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Between the alpha and the omega there is a whole series of
26intervening stages.

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