Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 175

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    That may well be, but I repeat what I say. 99 per cent of
 1still in. This is no doubt the reason why your expert was
 2unable to find the slightest reference to this
 3organisation in my private diaries.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you remember speaking at the Best Western Hotel in
 5Tampa on July 25th 1998?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I remember speaking at the Best Western Hotel in Tampa,
 7yes, but I do not know what the date was.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just going to hold it up. This is a flier, poster or
 9leaflet for your talk. Do you recognize it?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I have not seen that. It would not have been sent to
11me for obvious reasons.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says: "Banned. World famous British historian banned
13for publishing politically incorrect views about the
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell me where I find it in the bundle, please?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is one of these files, trial bundle C, tab 2, page 78.
17Mr Irving, there is a witness statement in tab 2 which is
18that of the Defendants' witness Rebecca Gutman.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Who we are not going to be able to cross-examine, I take
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you are certainly not. I am only interested in
22pictures of you, Mr Irving, and the stuff that you know
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am talking about my coming back. If this witness is not
25presenting herself for cross-examination, then the court
26is entitled to take what view of her evidence it wishes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course we know that, Mr Irving. Not only that, you
 2should know that you are entitled to introduce by the same
 3method material which might be apt to discredit her
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not the one who is defending this case. You are the
 6one defending this case. I remind you that I am the
 7Claimant in this action and you are the Defendants, not
 8other way round.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On we go.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you, Mr Irving. I think his Lordship
11probably knows that. You can be sure that I do.
12Mr Irving, will you look at that poster?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 2.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 78 on the right-hand side of the page in the stamp.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     C2.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mine has just got C on it.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This appears to be a leaflet handed out in the University
18of Southern Florida, University of Tampa.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Best Western Hotel, 820 East Bush Boulevard, Tampa. That
20is a regular venue for your attendances at the National
21Alliances meetings, is it not, Mr Irving?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I have ever spoken there again. I may be
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is 1998.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There is no year on this document.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, but there is in Miss Gutman's statement. This is

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 1where she picked it up, and when she picked it up she
 2reads in paragraph 3 as follows: "On or around mid July
 31998 the AJC (whatever that is) South West Florida
 4Chapter, received a flier ... advertising a lecture to be
 5given by Mr Irving on 25th July 1998 at the Best Western
 6Hotel (address), this flier is attached".
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The AJC is the American Jewish Committee, is that
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I hope so, yes. Anyhow, it turns out it is another
10National Alliance meeting.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     She says, "Although the flier made no mention of the
12National Alliance, the contact telephone number given was
13the number listed for the national office and the National
14Alliance", and I of course would have known that, would I?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You would, Mr Irving, would you not, if you were pictured
16on the rostrum, podium or platform with a National
17Alliance banner beside you?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     How on earth I would not what National Alliance banner
19looks like.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us have a look at it. Tell us where it
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Does it say National Alliance or something?
23 MR RAMPTON:     As far as I am told. I have never seen it. Let
24us look at it.
25 (Video was played)?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It has also got David Irving posters behind.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     So what is the significance of the CND banner?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     CND? I thought you said National Alliance.
 4 (Video played)?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It looked like the CND emblem to me.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, they are not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Is that not the CND emblem?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, if you would stop speaking for a moment,
 9I could try and watch the picture.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. That is what Mr Irving calls a CND banner.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     If I could see it from where I was standing, which is
12highly unlikely, if you look at the way the hall is laid
13out, I would have seen it sideways and I would have
14thought either that is a tree or a CND banner or
15something, but certainly the words and the banner would
16have meant nothing whatsoever to me. There is no reason
17why they should have.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the eighth of eight meetings of this body that you
19had been to.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the evidence for that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it true?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     What?
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Have you been to eight meetings of the National Alliance?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. Of the National Alliance, not. I have
25spoken across the United States possibly 50 or 60 times a

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     That is one of them, is it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have yet to produce any evidence that I have
 3known that I am speaking in a National Alliance meeting
 4and, if it is not in my private diary, which is the
 5obvious place to look for that evidence, at a time when no
 6legal action was contemplated, then quite clearly I had
 7not the slightest notion what the National Alliance was.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, in 1995 the man introduces you proudly on
 9behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Why should that have stuck in my memory, do you think?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because you are tailed by another man who speaks about the
13National Alliance. You go back again at least in 1998.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You go back again in 1998 and you speak from a rostrum
16with a prominent National Alliance banner beside you.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     If you could see where this prominent banner is, it is
18either on a back wall or on a side wall where no doubt
19I cannot see it.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How did you get into the room, Mr Irving? Did somebody
21let you in?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     So you imagine I go into a room as the speaker and I say,
23before I just go up to the rostrum I am just going to have
24a look around all the walls to see what is on display here
25and oh, by the way, what is that banner over there?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who put up the pictures of you behind you?

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