Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 175

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     There is a small break.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is when I then leave the room.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I know what the point is.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship has the point in the transcript,
 5then we do not need to see the tape because it is at the
 6beginning of the transcript as well as the end.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are stopping?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     That will do, if your Lordship is satisfied that
 9what I need is in the transcript.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have laid the ground for a question.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Mr Irving, do you remember that earlier on
12in this case we asked you some written questions, or we
13requested some information?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And do you remember that we asked you questions about the
16national alliance?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Very clearly. I remember very clearly what answer I gave
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I asked you a number of questions, general and specific,
20about the national alliance. You gave some replies. My
21Lord, these are in bundle A, tab 8. Mr Irving should be
22handed bundle A, and he should turn to tab 8 where he gave
23some answers. If turn it to the seventh page -- have you
24got your answers, Mr Irving -- it is a document which
25calls itself "some answers".
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn to page 7 of those answers, you will find a
 2page which begins with the answer number ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 9, that is correct.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 9. That is my fault. 23 and 25 are the
 6relevant answers. You said this, Mr Irving: "I have no
 7association with the body known to the Defendants as the
 8National Alliance as such or whatsoever."
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     What number are you?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Number 23. "I have no association with the body known to
11the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I cannot rule out the members of that organization which
15I take to be a legal organization in the United States.
16They have attended functions at which I spoke.
17Accordingly I have no knowledge of, and I take no interest
18in what materials it publishes or distributes. I have no
19knowledge whatsoever of the character of the National
20Alliance other than what is now claimed by the witnesses
21for the Defendants nor of the publications which it is
22alleged to publish or advertise"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I do not agree that I have spoken at any National
25Alliance meetings. It might be that on occasions a
26gentleman who was a member of the National Alliance

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 1offered to organize a lecture for me. In other words he
 2undertook to find a suitable room but I then circulated my
 3entire local mailing list to provide an audience. No
 4doubt he brought his friends as well. It will be seen
 5that in all these photographs of these events which were
 6produced at trial there is no kind of National Alliance
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, that was a false answer, was it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Both answers are absolutely true. I draw your attention
11to the fact that your expert witness, Professor Evans,
12having read my entire diaries from start to finish, has
13lamented the fact that he has found not one single
14reference to the National Alliance. Am I correct?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea what Professor Evans ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am telling you. That is the answer to your question.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not the answer to my question by any manner of
18means, Mr Irving. We are going to show a film of you in a
19moment wearing a National Alliance -- never mind that.
20Look at the beginning of the tab?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish to have that part struck off the record?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. It is a misunderstanding by me. I do not have things
23struck off the record. That happens in the United States,
24Mr Irving.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a fragment of a sentence there about my wearing

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On we go. On we go.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     On we go, Mr Irving. Tab 20, please, of K3, which
 3is the transcript of this last film we have been
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right at the beginning. Look at the beginning of it
 7please, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The first transcribed speech. Ladies and gentlemen, on
10behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
11Books, I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving".
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were not in the room at the time, of course?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I was there at the time.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On behalf of the National Alliance?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It would have meant nothing whatsoever to me. There is no
17reason at all why I should have remembered that phrase.
18I have no idea what the National Alliance is. I still do
19not know what it is. If somebody introducing me says I am
20here on behalf of some legion of something or some
21alliance of something, it is instantly forgotten by me two
22minutes later. I was there at a meeting which had been
23organized with my mailing list and the evidence for that
24is in the following paragraph: "Ladies and gentlemen,
25there are few familiar faces here this evening". In other
26words, all my own friends off my own mailing list.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It would not be right to suggest that, including this
 2meeting, you have attended no less than eight National
 3Alliance events between 1990 and 1998?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I have attended no events that have been organized, to my
 5knowledge, as National Alliance events and, had I attended
 6such events, then it would have been described as such in
 7my private diaries, quite clearly.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you think that was?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     This was a function which had been organized by an
10individual for me to attend and to which I had invited my
11entire Florida mailing list.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
13Books I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He had a table there no doubt on which he was selling
15books. That was no doubt the return that he got. But
16I have no idea what the National Alliance is and
17I supposed 90 per cent of the people in this audience also
18have no idea what the National Alliance is.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were the ham in the sandwich between that man
20introducing you proudly on behalf of the National Alliance
21and another man after you spoke, who also spoke out on
22behalf of the National Alliance, Mr Irving.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That may well be, but I repeat what I say. 99 per cent of
24the English public, of which I am a member, has not the
25slightest idea what the National Alliance is in the United
26States, and that is the position I am in, and what I am

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