Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition
Pages 111 - 115 of 175
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, yes -- just, no doubt, as Dr Goebbels' audience would
2have laughed at him.
3 A. [Mr Irving] I used to deliver exactly the same speech to the
4University of Durham, Cambridge University Union Society
5-- no complaints from anyone. The women laughed loudest
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we turn over the page to page 11 of 13. Can?
8 A. [Mr Irving] But, of course, you are missing out the bits that help to
9set the tone of the kind of mood of the evening.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not mind, Mr Irving. I want to finish this
11question before the adjournment. You do not like what is
12coming, I know, but I am going to do it very, very quickly
13so that I get my question in: "Because basically
14international news is a serious thing and I yearn for the
15old days of Lord Reith when the news reader on the BBC,
16which was the only channel in those times, wore a dinner
17jacket and bow tie and rose to the occasion. On great
18State occasions, one had the satisfaction of knowing not
19only that the news reader wearing the dinner jacket and
20the bow tie -- on great State occasions I think it was
21even a white tie that was called for -- but you had the
22satisfaction of knowing that the gentleman behind the
23camera was also wearing a dinner jacket. It gave a
24certain solid sense of satisfaction that all was well in
25the best", you should have said "all possible worlds" but
26it has got missed out, "but now we have women reading out
1news to us"?
2 A. [Mr Irving] "Now we have women reading out the news to us".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait, Mr Irving, the good bit is coming. "If they could
4perhaps have their" ----
5 A. [Mr Irving] But this is setting the whole tone of it, you know, you
6are not enjoying this speech.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] "If they could perhaps have their own news which they were
8reading to us I suppose [Laughter], it would be very
9interesting. [Good-natured female heckling]". So far,
10Mr Irving, so good. "For the time being, for a
11transitional period, I would be prepared to accept that
12the BBC should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman reading
13the important news to us, followed by a lady reading all
14the less important news, followed by Trevor McDonald
15giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the
16drug busts - [rest lost in loud Laughter and Applause]".
17Are you not appalled by that?
18 A. [Mr Irving] Not in the least. This is a funny after dinner speech in
19the spirit of any stand up comedian on the BBC. We have
20heard exactly the same comedy from the end of the pier in
21Brighton. It is exactly the same kind of speech, and if
22you find that -- even the black audience would not find
23something like offensive, believe me; and as for which of
24us two is the racist, I can only refer to the fact that I,
25unlike the members of the Defence team, employ ethnic
26minorities without the slightest hesitation ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, how many times do I need to tell
2you not to make that comment? It is inappropriate,
4 A. [Mr Irving] Well, if I am being accused of racism, my Lord, I
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- and is doing your cause no good, I can assure you.
7 A. [Mr Irving] If I am being accused or racism, I think it is highly
8relevant to find out that I employ ethnic minorities
9without the slightest hesitation.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, it is my view that counts and I do not think it is
11says, so please do not say it again?
12 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, what I would like to do with your
13Lordship's permission -- there is an awful lot of this --
14I have got a very little way, and your Lordship can
15understand one reason why that is so -- what I would like
16to do is at 2 o'clock -- it will take a little bit of time
17to set up -- is show a video of one of Mr Irving's
18speeches at Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995 at a
19gathering of something called the National Alliance.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. We will do that at 2 o'clock.
21 (Luncheon adjournment)
23 A. [Mr Irving] May I first apologise for my unruly behaviour on the race
24matter. I should not have kept making that point.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry. I do appreciate that it is
26quite stressful. You have been being cross-examined for
1quite a long time, but I think it is better unsaid.
2 A. [Mr Irving] Secondly, in view of the fact that I was broadcasting to
3Australia at five this morning, may I sit during the
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. Sit any time during your
7 MR RAMPTON: I hope that goes for me too so far as the film is
8concerned. My Lord, this is a video tape recording of a
9speech or talk, call it what one likes, by Mr Irving at
10Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995. The transcript,
11I think, is K3, tab 20. The plan is to do the beginning,
12and there is a specific reason for that, and then go to
13the section which your Lordship has in the extract at page
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
16 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, is there any reason why they are just showing
17this section and not the whole tape?
18 MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. It takes an hour. I have
19absolutely no views about that at all, my Lord.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why not watch the extract and then we can go
21on the written page to any other passage you want.
22 A. [Mr Irving] Very well.
23 MR RAMPTON: If it makes Mr Irving uncomfortable, I would much
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just concerned about time, Mr Irving.
26Explain to me why you want the whole thing shown.
1 A. [Mr Irving] Your Lordship will probably have glanced through it and
2you will have seen that----
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, I have not, actually.
4 A. [Mr Irving] I am sorry. In fact, I remarked to one of Mr Rampton's
5instructing solicitors as I came upstairs in the elevator
6that I was astonished that they had chosen this particular
7video tape because that is precisely the one that I would
8have wanted shown. I had apprehended they were going to
9show the whole tape and not just a fragment.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. You think this in a way gives the
11flavour of the sort of speeches you were making?
12 A. [Mr Irving] Unless they are intending showing lots of extracts from
13lots of speeches, then I would prefer one entire to be
14shown rather than just one fragment taken out of context.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving puts it like that, that in a way
16this would be a good sample speech, I am inclined to think
17he is entitled to have the whole thing played.
18 MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. I have no feelings about that.
19 Video is shown.
21 Break in video at this point.
22 A. [Mr Irving] I then leave the room so there is not much point in
23showing the rest of it.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there may be.
25 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
26 (Video continued).
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