Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 175

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell me what page you are, please?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am lost too.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     10 of 13 at the top of the page. I will start the
 4paragraph again.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The bit about I am not anti-coloured, right?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I read the previous paragraph. "I am not
 7anti-coloured, take it from me; nothing pleases me more
 8than when I arrive at an airport, or a station, or a
 9seaport, and I see a coloured family there - the black
10father, the black wife and the black children. I think it
11is just as handsome a spectacle as the English family, or
12the French family, or the German family, or the South
13African family ... (reading to the words)... I think that
14is the way that God planned it and that is the way it
15should be. When I see these families arriving at the
16airport I am happy (and when I see them leaving at London
17airport I am happy)". Well, Mr Irving, well, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw in a car in Durban
19which said, "Welcome to Durban, now go away". I think we
20all dislike tourists of any colour.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These are black tourists though, that is the
23 MR RAMPTON:     Tourists? These are black people ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- you are talking about, and your statement, "i am not
26an anti-coloured, take it from me", was a cynical little

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not agree. I am not anti-coloured. This was the
 3cynical little joke at the end because you will notice
 4that the first bit did not get the laughter. It was the
 5cynical little joke at the end that got the laughter.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "... and when I see them leaving" ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Right, so that was recognized as being the joke.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "When I see them leaving at London airport I am happy.
 9[Cheers and Laughter]". You were speaking to a bunch of
10fellow racists who would like to clear these islands of
11all their black people?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     On what information do you base the knowledge of what the
13audience was ----
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Otherwise you would not have got cheers and laughter; you
15would have been bundled out ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is a question. It is a question.
17Were you speaking to a bunch of racists?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Was I -- no, I was not. No, they were perfectly
19ordinary ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     Why were there cheers?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, they obviously liked the jokes that I said. They
22liked the way that I told the joke at the end.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you had been speaking to a normal audience of
24non-racist people and you had said something like that,
25you would have been chucked out on your ear, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you can take it from me, I am less racist than

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 1yourself probably as witnessed the people that I employ.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. I am going to read on. "But if there is one
 3thing that gets up my nose, I must admit, it is this --
 4the way ... the thing is when I am down in Torquay and
 5I switch on my television set and I see one of them" --
 6"one of them" -- "reading our news to us". Now, who is
 7the "them" and who is the "us"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Trevor McDonald.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, "one of them"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in fact, this is a stock speech I used to make.
11I used to -- it was a debating speech I would deliver to
12university audiences. I would start off by talking about
13having our people, the God old days, Lord Reith, the
14announcer wearing his dinner jack, you knew the people
15behind the camera were actually wearing dinner jackets too
16on Royal occasions, but now in the gradual drumming down
17of television, they have women reading the news and they
18have -- it is part of a general speech I used to deliver
19and I used to say ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question, I think before you go
21further ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to set the ----
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- was what did you mean -- listen to the question ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- what did you mean by "them", not what did you mean by
26"one". What did you mean by "them" and "us"? What is

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 1the answer to that?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     As you say, I go on straightaway, I talk about women.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Right. Wait a minute. We are coming on,
 4Mr Irving. You have rambled on without reading the text,
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is the clear answer. The very next sentence
 7says ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, we are going to read on.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I do admit to chauvinism.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "It is our news and they're reading it to me"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If I was ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is male news and it should be read to us by men
14wearing ----
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, will you please be patient?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     --- dinner jackets and ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to read quite a lot of this. Please.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, please. Can I just ask one other
19question because I am puzzled, and I want to make sure
20I understand what you are conveying. When you were asked
21what was meant by that passage, you said the "one" was
22Trevor McDonald ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, because ----
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- but you then said that the "them" was women.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we come to ----
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I do not understand.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     --- oh, we come to Trevor McDonald over the page, I see,
 2my Lord. I was jumping ahead of myself. He is three
 3paragraphs on.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Trevor McDonald is one of us because, like me, he
 5wears glasses, is that right -- one of them, rather?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid I do not follow that.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said initially without thinking of your clever, clever
 8"woman" answer, you said, "That is Trevor McDonald"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is a standard speech that I used to give as
10a standard gramaphone record.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did you say that Trevor McDonald was one of them?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I know what is coming. I know what is coming in
13the speech.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What "them" is Trevor McDonald one of?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he is someone who is different from us.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In what sense? He wears glasses?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No, he speaks English better than you and I do ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what you meant, is it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     --- for example -- yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is one of them very good English speakers?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a witty speech being delivered after dinner to an
22audience in a private club.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Wicked", Mr Irving?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "Witty", not wicked.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Witty", did you say?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it got laughter.

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