Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 175

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    Can you give me the references if they are
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is page 41, I think of, I hope, the
 3extracts bundle, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 41.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is the last entry on page 41 in my copy.
 6I will read the whole of it because I do not want -- the
 7entry on page 19, please, Mr Irving?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     What page am I supposed to be looking at?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 4, tab 10, page 19.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 MR RAMPTON:     "Stayed in hotel all evening apart from a short
12walk down the street. Worked revising Goring in the
13foyer. The conservative newspapers of Johannesburg and
14Pretoria are full of my coming. Unfortunately, I have not
15left all my blue sheets and media and personal contacts in
16London. Around 8 p.m. ... (reading to the words) ... She
17is bristling a bit about some of my more blatant
18chauvinism; he talking most interestingly about the AIDS
19epidemic in black Africa. He says he thinks that the
20black population in all Africa will die out within a very
21short space of time". That was in 1987 -- poor man will
22have been disappointed. "He attributes the incredibly
23high AIDS" ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     On what do you base the conclusion he is going to be
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us read on. I think the trouble is with

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 1interpolations, they ----
 2 MR RAMPTON:     "He attributes the incredibly high AIDS incidence
 3among blacks to their sexual activity, few blacks,
 4apparently, engaging in less than five sexual acts per
 5night". Whose underline is that?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It looks like mine.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does, does it not? "He says the astonishing sexual
 8activity among black men accounts for why a large number
 9of white female intellectuals and students like having
10black boyfriends which now, of course, they will regret.
11God works in mysterious ways, but here we agree he", that
12is God, not your mate Burridge, "appears to be working
13remorselessly towards a Final Solution which may cruelly
14wipe out, not only the blacks and homosexuals, but a large
15part of the drug addicts and sexually promiscuous and
16indiscriminate heterosexual population as well."
17     Not racist, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     What is racist about that?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are hoping that God is going to complete his long term
20plan, his Endlosung, his Final Solution, and wipe outline
21all the blacks as well as the homosexuals and everybody
23 A. [Mr Irving]     What a totally perverse spin you have put on that diary
24passage. I am a religious man. When I see things
25happening, I see God's hand in everything that is
26happening. When I see God inflicting a plague like this

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 1on Africa, I ask myself what the possible explanation for
 2it can be. I am talking to a medical expert, who is a
 3medical expert from Swaziland, who is describing to me
 4what I did not know, I had never heard of at that time.
 5I know a great deal more about the AIDS, the incidence of
 6AIDS, among the native population of Africa. At this time
 7it was total news to me and he told me, and it undoubtedly
 8is true, that it is cutting a swathe right through the
 9native populations of the whole of the African Continent,
10and we are musing about the strange way that God works in.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So God, like you, would have used capital F, Final,
12capital S, Solution, would he, just as Hitler, no doubt,
13was God's instrument in applying that to the Jews? Is
14that right, capital F ----
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It is obvious I am referring to the Final Solution in the
16Aryan sense there, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you think God ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     But you will not find in that sentence the slightest trace
19of approval of what is going on there. I think this is
20another of these enormous human tragedies.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you think, and I do not want ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And to suggest that I approved of what was done to the
23Jews or to suggest that I am approving here of what is
24happening to the wretched black population of Africa is
25perverse and repugnant.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is God working remorselessly towards his capital F,

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 1Final, capital S, Solution, so far as the blacks etc. are
 2concerned ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     You cannot find in any of that passage any hint of
 4approval from me of what is happening.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is -- I am listening aghast to what the doctor is
 7telling me about what I had never heard of before, namely
 8the incidence of AIDS in the black population of Uganda
 9and Swaziland and the southern African Continent.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I would like to look at something else, please. Tab 5
11of this file, pages 10 to 11. This is your talk to the
12Clarendon Club ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     While we were on that previous African tour, it is a pity
14you did not leave in the pages of the diary which referred
15to my visit to Soweto township where we picked up several
16black people in our car -- this was at the height of the
17troubles -- and drove around Soweto with these five blacks
18sitting in our car allowing -- to show us around the whole
19of their township because I was very interested in their
20problems, but, unfortunately, you took those pages out.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree with me, Mr Irving, that one sometimes gets a
22better insight into a person's true thoughts and feelings
23when one reads them written in his private diary than in a
24speech, for example?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes. These diaries are not intended for publication
26and you have been very fortunate to have them. 50 million

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 1words have been placed at your disposal.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, thank you, Mr Irving. People who bring libel actions
 3have to make discovery. It is as simple as that.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     And I have had no objection whatsoever. I attach the
 5proper conditions to it and I said you can have access to
 6my entire private diaries and telephone logs and
 7everything. So far this is all you have found.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we turn to tab 5 in this one? This is something, my
 9Lord, that is not copied into the extract.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is not?
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is in your Lordship's but not in mine.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give me the reference in mine?
13 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot, no, because I have not got it -- page
1435, 2/D.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I am going to read the full entry in
17this which is a talk I think you gave to the Clarendon
18Club, whatever that may be, on 19th September 1992, as you
19can see from the beginning of the tab. After some
20applause you say this: "For the last four weeks just for
21once I have gone away from London, where I have been
22sitting, down in Torquay, which is a white community. We
23saw perhaps one black man and one coloured family in the
24whole time I was down there. I am not anti-coloured, take
25it from me; nothing pleases me more than when I arrive at
26an airport, or a station, or a seaport" ----

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