Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 5 of 175
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE 1996 I. No. 113 QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Wednesday, 2nd February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell &Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY FOURTEEN
1 <Day 14 Wednesday, 2nd February 2000.
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes?
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, may it please the court. Mr Rampton
5wishes to put the witness van Pelt back in the witness box
6(and I have no objections) to take further submissions in
7connection with the challenged document.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
9 MR RAMPTON: My Lord ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The incineration capacity?
11 MR RAMPTON: Yes, he has done his homework and I am just going
12to let him tell your Lordship ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whilst we remember what the point is, it is a
15 MR RAMPTON: Can I, first of all, pass up to your Lordship, as
16requested, he has given your Lordship a nomenclature guide
17for Auschwitz and also he has done a hand drawn sketch
18plan of the whole site. I suggest your Lordship puts that
19in the front of the Auschwitz file, probably the second
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: K2?
22 MR RAMPTON: Yes, K2. The documents which he will produce in a
23moment will go in tab 4 of K2, I suggest.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have had these documents, Mr Irving, have
26 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, I have just received them.
1 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, this is what I asked for.
3 MR RAMPTON: It is, my Lord.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. I had not realized what
6 < PROFESSOR VAN PELT, recalled.
7 < Further re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, thank you very much for doing
9that. Yes, Mr Rampton?
10 MR RAMPTON: Professor van Pelt, just one question. Have you
11taken up his Lordship's request or invitation to study
12this document, which is the one we had which is the
13document of 28th June 1943, which relates to incineration
14capacity, to study the question whether or not it is
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, I have.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Its having been challenged. Will you then please tell his
18Lordship what conclusions you have reached by reference to
19this document and any others in this little clip? Can you
20give that to the judge?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I have last night with what was still available to me,
22because I only carry a small bundle of documents I carried
23with me to London and even some already had been packed
24I did not want to open the box, but whatever I had, I was
25going to look at a couple of the challenges which had been
26made yesterday by Mr Irving.
1 Before I go into that, I would like to present,
2first of all, my copy, my marked copy, which is No. 1 of
3the document which comes from Moscow. There are some
4calculations on the back, on the side, which are
5irrelevant. I have indicated on this, this is page No. 1,
6on what were the particular issues Mr Irving found
7important which is the way the date was typed in as 28th
8June 1943 without a location, without Auschwitz,
9Achtundzwanzigte Juni Neunhundertdreiundvierzig.
10 The second thing which was challenged yesterday
11was the code which indicates the Brieftage Buchnumber
12which is 31550, and then Jahrling, or Jahrling, and then
14 The third one was the title of SS Brigadefuhrer
15Generalmayor der Waffen SS Kammler.
16 On the last point, I did not have find any
17document where the same mistake had happened. So I cannot
18explain that or I cannot give any second document, but
19then I only had one other document with me which was the
20Vergasungskeller letter of 29th June 1943 where Kammler
21has got on the right and the correct title.
22 The first document I would like to present which
23is a new document is No. 2, which is the copy which is in
24the Domburg archive in the DDR -- the former DDR now --
25and which was made available to the Auswenzin archive.
26This was the document, the copy which actually has been
1published in the 50s, and I have here the original.
2I have given you a copy of my copy, but I have here the
3original copy from the Auschwitz archive with the original
4stamp on it, so I do not know.
5 MR RAMPTON: I do believe his Lordship ought to see that partly
6because our copy ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not a very good copy.
8 MR RAMPTON: It is not a very good copy. There are some colour
9on that, original colour on that.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This copy is not much better, but at least it shows the
11original stamp of the archive.
12 MR IRVING: Just so we can be plain, this one went, in other
13words, to East Germany and Auschwitz, not the other way
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, probably.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where it was stamped?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just to make sure I am following, the one
18that we have previously been looking at, I thought you
19said came originally from the Moscow archives?
20 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is the Moscow copy, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] This is DDR?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Domburg, yes, the Domburg archive, which has been
23available in Poland since at least -- this was published
24in the 50s and this is also the document which went to
25Vienna, this particular copy. A copy of that was made
26available to Vienna.
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