Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 186

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    Well, I gave him a great deal of assistance when he was
 1because I was no longer writing about Dresden.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whether or not he has found the real one, and I expect you
 3to accept that he has ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the first I have heard of it actually at this
 5moment there is supposed to have been a real one.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. But the interesting thing about the real one, as you
 7will see in a moment, is that its numbers coincide more or
 8less ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we have not been shown it. I cannot comment on
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 67, tab 2.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It was in his book, right. Is this from a printed book?
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, this is from Bergander.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So we have not got it?
15 MR RAMPTON:     We have not got the document, no.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you referring to the handwritten page 67 or typed?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Handwritten. That looks like Bergander.
18 MR RAMPTON:     It does.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see any reference to the Tagesbefehl. It is
20T-A-G-E-S B-E-F-E-H-L.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 235. I am probably wrong, but there is
22a reference to "befehl" there. No, I think it is a
23different "befehl".
24 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I can tell your Lordship this, that on
25page 553, 552 and 53, Professor Evans reports the
26discovery of the real TB 47 by Bergander through Ehrlich

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 1and at paragraph 2 on page 553 he says this: "In this
 2new, authentic Ehrlich copy the death figure was put at
 320,204, the expected dead at 25,000 and the number
 4cremated at 6,865", which are exactly the same figures as
 5in the fake or forged TB 47 except for the missing 0 at
 6the end.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     In fact, I calculated that myself when I rewrote the
 8Dresden book three or four years ago. I spotted the fact
 9that somebody had clearly juggled the figures, but this is
10literally the first I ever heard of the existence of a
11real Tagesbefehl.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the reference given for that is Bergander at page
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the reason I mention that this is the first I
15have heard of it is I see that here Professor Evans in his
16infinite wisdom is saying, "despite having been finally
17forced to disown", what by? I never knew there was a real
18one. I have always recognized the other one was fake.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have not always recognized it, Mr Irving. We are
20coming back to that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, ever since -- the last 20 or 30 years I recognized
22it was fake because the figures were so totally inflated.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All I am asking you to accept -- you can look at it in
24Bergander, it is on page 77 of tab 2 of the file.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is right.
26 MR RAMPTON:     All I am asking you to accept, because it does

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 1save such a lot of time -- there is no trap in it -- is
 2that the real Bergander (sic) was found and that, as one
 3would expect, its figures are short by a 0.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You said the real Bergander, you mean the
 5real Tagesbefehl?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I mean the real Tagesbefehl, sorry, yes.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall get on the phone to Mr Bergander tonight and ask
 8him if he knows about this.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it is in his book at page 261.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall conceal the fact I did not read his book.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can tell him that you were forced to read it in court
12if you want?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can tell him you were forced to read it in court.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we cannot read it in court because you have not got
16it. You have only got his book. We have got his ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As I say, his book?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, the book, yes, but I would have liked to have seen the
19document itself which he says he has.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, so would I. I wonder where it is?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know. Perhaps Mr Bergander has it. I do
22not know.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps I can get him to fax to me.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it really does not matter.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it does because -- well, I am not going to
26presuppose what you were going to say.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am only asking you to accept that the figures for deaths
 2and expected deaths in the real version are 20,000 and
 325,000, respectively?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That closely tallies with the Police Chief's report
 5of that date.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is all I was driving at.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     And I reached this deduction independently of all this
10about five years ago when I rewrote my Dresden book.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is as may be. In fact, document -- I will just read
12out the figures and then we can get on -- the final report
13of 15th March 1945 which I think you have got, or have
15 A. [Mr Irving]     You call it the final report?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is called the final report of the Dresden Police sent
17to you on 27th May 1966 ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I am bit unhappy -- oh, it is called
19"Flusmeldung", right?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     15th March.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which should be pages 17 of tab 2 in this file.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes. It is the final report on the four
24air raids.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, good. The figures given in that document, I am told
26by Professor Evans (but you dispute it, if you wish) are

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 118,735 dead, 212 badly wounded and quite a lot more people
 2slighted wounded, is that right? It is no good --
 3I cannot read it, so...
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, of course, the Police Chief actually does not spell
 5it out quite like that. He says, "18,000 bodies so far
 6found", I believe, which is a subtle difference.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure, and we will come to that along down the road, I am
 8sure, Mr Irving. The situation report 1404 of 22nd March
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Situation report gives figures of, I think, and it may be
12there is a misprint because it is odd that it is 18,375
13and not 735. Maybe they have been adjusted. 25,000 total
14expected and 35,000 missing, is that right?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The interesting thing was that the one document was
16supplied to me in 1966 by the Soviet Authorities and
17simultaneously in the same mail I received the other
18document from the West German Authorities. They had found
19it in the German Finance Ministry files.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Middle to end of May 1966, is that right?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, this is three years after I published my book.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want to go back, if I may, because again I am not
23interested for this purpose -- I know you will get angry
24about it, but I am not -- I am not interested in what
25actually happened at Dresden or in the total numbers,
26though that, as it has in other areas of the case, may

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