Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 186

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have got it.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is coming.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But, I will, in fact, be in a position to call the
 4evidence of the other convictions that resulted from the
 5Kristallnacht ----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     By all means do.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     --- if you attach importance to it.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, neither your Lordship nor Mr Irving has
10seen this document. I would like to use it because, as
11far as I am concerned, it is both comprehensive and
12accurate. When I say that it contains a comprehensive
13catalogue in date order of all the material to which
14I want to refer.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I think I will do with it is put it in
16your summary of place, is that a good idea?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is a good idea, in the Dresden section.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you producing a file on Dresden?
19 MR RAMPTON:     There is a file on Dresden. Sorry, my Lord, about
20this conversation. It is meant to be helpful.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I also provided your Lordship with a small clip
22of documents.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We might put it in the same file, I suspect.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is why I was mentioning that.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I have here two sets of documents, one of which
26one might call the David Irving original research file, or

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 1clip, the other is some of what Mr Irving has said on this
 2question. I am trying to not refer to those if I possibly
 3can because I want to use this schedule here. My Lord,
 4there is an empty file on the bench, I think, if those
 5could go in as tabs 2 and 3?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have this empty file. Has
 7it got anything on the back of it?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     L1.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1, yes. This is going to become Dresden, is
11 MR RAMPTON:     Well, the first part is history. That is not what
12I meant. The first part is Hitler/Horthy which is a very
13slim clip of, I think, two pages or something, and the
14next two tabs can be Dresden.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to ask if somebody can put this
16into tab 2 because they have been individually hole
17punched so that it is half an hour's work.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Before I start on this topic, my Lord,
19I think I need to know from Mr Irving through your
20Lordship whether he has any objection (and he has not seen
21it before) to using this tabular schedule that I have just
22handed in.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it contain anything that is not in the
24other documents?
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is all taken from the documents.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you happy with that, Mr Irving?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, with reservations, yes. I think it contains
 2prejudicial material which does not -- but it depends how
 3he presents it
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us work off it anyway, shall we?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Let us start off anyway. My Lord, I start on page
 63. I should preface that by saying on page 1 your
 7Lordship will see as the first four items listed four
 8authentic German, that is to say Nazi German, wartime
 9documents dealing with the numbers of dead as a result of
10allied bombing at Dresden in February 1945. As your
11Lordship will see, there is no dispute about the
12authenticity of any of those four documents. That is
13right, is it not, Mr Irving?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have them in front of me yet.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know what they are, 15th March 1945, final report?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     22nd March 1945, situation report 1404; the real
18Tagesbefehl 47 of 22nd March 1945, not the fake, and the
19situation report 1414 of the Chief of Police of 3rd April
201945. You are well familiar with all those documents, are
21you not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure about No. 3 and 4 until I actually see them. Do
23they come from my discovery?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As far as I know. I think perhaps the last one comes from
25Bergander, but I am not sure. There is no doubt that the
26real Tagesbefehl was obtained, I think was sent to you by

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 1Bergander, but I am not sure, in 1977. Have you seen the
 2real Tagesbefehl -- the non-faked one?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am afraid my bundle is not assisting me here.
 4Where do I find these four documents in the bundle?
 5I have got 15th March one.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know that I can tell you that.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I have 22nd March one.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because for one thing I can hardly read it. There is a
 9document on page 7, for example, which might be anything.
10There is a document of 22nd March at page 8.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, those two I am familiar with.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. That goes on and on.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That goes on and on. I am lacking the next 22nd March one
14which you say is Tagesbefehl 47.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know if there is a next 22nd March one. I
16really cannot help. But these documents all, I think --
17we think that these documents came from your discovery,
18such as we have. But you know what I mean by the real
19Tagesbefehl 47, do you not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I do not. The only one that I am familiar with is
21the one turns out to have been faked by the German
22Propaganda Ministry.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I see.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the original? I mean the genuine
25one? It does not look as if it is in the bundle.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No, it does not, I agree. I do not know

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 1actually. It is referred to in a book by somebody called
 2Bergander in 1977.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think there is a genuine one, document No. 47.
 4The only one I have seen was a fake which was produced by
 5the Goebbels Propaganda Ministry for propaganda purposes.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, which had an extra 0 added to all its
 7figures, did it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It multiplied everything by an order of magnitude, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn to page 11, my Lord, of the table, it says,
10basing herself on Professor Evans, Miss Rogers writes
11this: "1977, the real TB 47 comes to light. It is
12discovered by Bergander who found a reservist Ehrlich who
13had a copy cited at page 261 of Bergander, etc. Evans
14describes Bergander as the most authoritative work", and
15so on and so forth. I dare say if you have not read
16Bergander, Mr Irving (and I know you do not read other
17people's books) you will not be conscious of ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Gutz Bergander was a very good friend of mine -- he
19still is a very good friend of mine.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read this 1977 book of his?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not, no.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the answer to my question was, "You are quite right,
23I do not read even my friend's books and so I am not
24familiar with this document". Is that right?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I gave him a great deal of assistance when he was
26writing his book, but I had no reason to read his book

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