Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 186

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where the Party Courts drew the line between actions which
 2could be justified, and those which were judged to have
 3been committed out of vile" -- I could say base , I
 4suppose, could I not? -- "motives, becomes clear in the
 5various judgments of the Party Courts. For instance, in
 6the report of 13th February 1939, Goring was informed of
 7the outcome of the investigations in 16 cases which the
 8Supreme Party Court had undertaken. In only two of the 16
 9cases, both involving the rape of Jewish women, had the
10Party Court transferred the perpetrators to ordinary
11criminal courts (and in these two cases the party judges
12were not motivated by concern for the victims, but simply
13by the fact that Nazi party members had committed 'racial
14defilement' or in other words compromised what the party
15regarded as their own racial purity). In all the other 14
16cases the Supreme Party Court asked Hitler to quash
17proceedings. These cases included the brutal murder of 21
18Jews, who had been shot dead, stabbed to death or drowned
19by Nazi party members. The worst punishment meted out to
20these murderers was an official warning and barring from
21any Nazi party office for a period of three years. The
22great majority of offenders received even milder
23'punishments', or none at all." Is that true or false,
24that account given by Professor Evans?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, Professor Evans has not given us the source of
26information for what happened to these people,

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 1unfortunately. He has just relied on this one report
 2which deals with the investigation of these cases, but he
 3has not told us what he relies on for the outcome of the
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     14 out of 16, the two transferred to be prosecuted in the
 6normal way being rapists?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     You heard me say earlier that there were substantially
 8more cases than just the 16, and I will certainly be
 9presenting to the court the evidence of the other cases.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stick with the 16. You are being
11asked, do you quarrel with this?
12 MR RAMPTON:     You have only two out of 16. You have 14 that get
13let off despite being murderers.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not know what his evidence is for that.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is in the report. He says ibid, which is his footnote
16for 130, which means the same report, the report to
18 A. [Mr Irving]     In cases 3 to 16 the Supreme Party Court requests that the
19Fuhrer halt the proceedings in the regular criminal court,
20so it does look as though those 16 were not further
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Two of them were, apparently.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So they get off just because they are jolly party members
25acting in accordance with the wish of the Fuhrer and
26murdering Jews?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How does that chime with what you wrote in Goebbels?
 3"Hess ordered the Gestapo and the party's courts to delve
 4into the origins of the night's violence and turn the
 5culprits over to the public prosecutors"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     He did. That is the document of December 1938.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the contrary, Mr Irving ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     14 of them never went to the criminal courts.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the sentence, he ordered the Gestapo and the
11party's courts to delve into the origins and so on, Hess
12ordered and so on, to delve into the origins of the
13night's violence and turn the culprits over to the public
14prosecutors, they did then enquire and delve, and
15subsequently in February 1939 there is this later report
16of what the outcome was.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They just got a ticking off for raping and
19 A. [Mr Irving]     This is absolutely right, my Lord, but there were then
20very many other cases to which this document makes no
21reference where prosecutions were carried out, and I shall
22bring that evidence forward.
23 MR RAMPTON:     You make no reference in your book to this
24absolutely scandalous manipulation of the justice system,
25do you?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I make any amount of reference in the Goebbels

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 1biography to the manipulation of the justice system by the
 2Nazis. There is any amount of evidence of the way that
 3they twisted the system in order to prosecute Catholic
 4priests and so on. The whole way through the book I have
 5shown the cynical manipulation of the German justice
 6system but there is a limit to how much you can keep on
 7packing into a book without making it 2,000 pages long or
 8filled with the 8 pages of sludge that I referred to
 9earlier. You have to halt the story at some point and
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To avoid misrepresentation, which I suggest this is an
12absolutely scandalous example, it is much better to leave
13it out. If you cannot find enough space to put in the
14truth, leave it out.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     You are not suggesting the sentence that I wrote there is
16not the truth? It is absolutely true.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course I am.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     They ordered an investigation but at some point, we are
19dealing here with December 1938, you then draw the line.
20You have mentioned how many people have been thrown into
21concentration camps, you have mentioned the murders, you
22have mentioned the huge amount of looting and destruction
23that went on, and now I am being criticised because I have
24not referred to 16 specific cases where the Nazis acted in
25a perverse way when it was not Goebbels who was acting in
26a perverse way, it is the rest of the Nazi system that is

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 1operating in a perverse way.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You knew perfectly well when you wrote this that it was
 3the intention of the Nazi Party that all but a tiny
 4minority of those guilty of everything from murder
 5downwards should get off. You never said it?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     First of all, there is no evidence of any such intention
 7and I am not writing a book about the Nazi justice
 8system. If I was to write a book about the Nazi justice
 9system, I would have gone in far greater detail into this
10kind of evidence. I am writing a biography of the man,
11Dr Josef Goebbels, who triggered this outrage, and there
12comes a point where you draw a line and say, "That is as
13far as one is going down that particular story because we
14now have other things to relate". Elsewhere in the book
15I have given any amount of evidence of specific
16distortions of the German justice system with which he was
17personally involved, for example, the prosecution of the
18German priests and the prosecution of Pastor Niemoeller,
19and so on.
20 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I want to turn now, if I may, to Dresden.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, so we can put away Evans, can we not?
22 MR RAMPTON:     He can be put by way, as it were. There are one
23or two places where the full text of a document is quoted
24in evidence which we may need to look at, but I would
25recommend using what I call the Heather Rogers' Guide to

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