Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition
Pages 61 - 65 of 186
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1 A. [Mr Irving] If we look at the aftermath of this sentence, so to speak,
2there were public prosecutions in the regular criminal
3courts and people went to jail for what they did on the
4night of broken glass in Germany. If you are interested
5in figures I will obtain them for you.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] I will give you the figures in a moment.
7 A. [Mr Irving] I will provide my own figures, if you do not mind.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Wait for Mr Rampton's question. You may
9agree with it.
10 MR RAMPTON: It is entirely up to you what material you choose
11to put before the court. This is cross-examination,
12Mr Irving, not a speech by you. Mr Irving, can we look,
13please, and see what in fact was the directive which went
14out under Hess's authority? It is in 293 and 4 of Evans.
15It is dated 19th December 1938. It is translated. My
16Lord, it is at the bottom of 293 in paragraph
171. Professor Evans translates it as follows. The German
18is at the bottom of 294.
19 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. This is the source of that particular sentence.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] I know it is. "The aim of the investigation by the Party
21Court is to establish which cases can and must be held
22responsible by the action itself and which cases arose out
23of personal and base motives. In the latter cases a
24referral to the state prosecution service will be
25unavoidable, indeed it will be just".
26 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] The only people who were going to be handed over to be
2prosecuted by the State criminal justice machinery were
3those who had acted out of base motives of their own.
4Anybody else, however grave their crime, would be let off?
5 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where do we find that in your book?
7 A. [Mr Irving] In this sentence. That document justifies the sentence
8I gave: "He ordered the Gestapo and the party's courts to
9delve into the origins of the night's violence and turn
10the culprits over to the public prosecutors." We have
11already seen in the previous pages that a lot of the
12violence was authorised by the head of state, so quite
13clearly those culprits are not going to be turned over.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I am afraid I have now gone
15spinning round in 360 degrees. A lot of the violence was
16authorised by the head of State?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. We have seen that. There is no question about that.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] In what sense?
19 A. [Mr Irving] Hitler has said pull the police back.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is authorizing the burning of
22 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord ----
23 MR RAMPTON: And the killing of Jews.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the answer to that question,
26 A. [Mr Irving] It is authorizing what happened in the run up to the
1Reichskristallnacht. If you remember, it was not on the
2actual night of the broken glass once it got out of
3control. When Hitler heard that there were individual
4outbursts in Kassell and Magdeburg and other provinces, he
5said the police are not to intervene, they are to hold
6back, the public must be given a chance to express their
7outrage and so on. That is what I mean when I say that
8that kind of violence was certainly authorized by the head
9of State, and it was not appropriate to turn people like
10that that over to the law courts. But there were other
11people who then went and settled private scores and that
12is what has been winkled out by these party court
14 MR RAMPTON: Shall we just have a look at some figures? Page
15295 of Evans, Mr Irving. Paragraph 3, my Lord. Set out
16are what the people's court, or whatever they call
17themselves, set out above are what I take to be what they
18saw as their terms of reference. Perhaps I ought to read
19that as a preliminary:
20 "The Fuhrer's's Deputy", that is Hess, is it
21not, "shared the view of the Supreme Party Court that the
22excesses which had become known should in any case first
23be investigated by the party jurisdiction ... The view of
24the Supreme Party Court", this is in February 1939, "is
25that it must be fundamentally impossible for political
26offences which primarily touch on the party's interests,
1offences which ... are desired by the party as illegal
2measures," you notice that wording, do you not?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] "desired by the party as illegal measures, are confirmed
5and condemned by state jurisdiction, without the party
6previously having the possibility of creating clarity
7about the events and contexts through its own courts, in
8order if necessary to ask the Fuhrer to quash the trial
9before the state courts at the right moment". This was
10just intended to be a complete whitewash, was it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Unfortunately, Professor Evans has, in his amiable way,
12translated only a fraction of the actual document which
13you will find under tab 2 of trial bundle L2, and you will
14find there that he lists there horrendous outrages
15conducted during the Reichskristallnacht at the end of
161938. I will translate very roughly to you, Mr Rampton:
17The Supreme Party court -- does your Lordship wish to look
18at the original German?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I am listening to you. I am happy to
21 A. [Mr Irving] This is on page handwritten 3 of that document which
22Professor Evans has quoted from. At the end of November
231938 the Supreme Party court received from various gau
24courts, in other words the provincial party courts,
25information that in the conduct of the demonstrations on
269th November 1938, that is the Reichskristallnacht, in a
1considerable degree there had been plundering and killings
2of Jews which are already being investigated by the police
3and public prosecutors, and so on.
4 It then continues about how these various things
5are going to be investigated and it specifies particular
6episodes on the following day, crime committed by
7individual people who are named here, a whole series of
8them, then 16 specific episodes given just in that one
9party court file.
10 MR RAMPTON: I hear what you say. If we need it, we will have
11a translation made of the whole that report.
12 A. [Mr Irving] It does seem that Evans -- I mean, the dot dot dot he has
13put in there does conceal quite a lot.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] No doubt with an eye to saving paper. We can have it
15translated if necessary. You can take it up with Professor
17 A. [Mr Irving] You keep saying I can take these things up with Professor
18Evans, but at present his Lordship only has your word and
19this document in front of him in translation.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I have got what you tell me is also
21there and, unless and until Professor Evans says that you
22are wrong about that, I will assume you are right.
23 MR RAMPTON: I cannot possibly take it up with you, Mr Irving.
24I do not have a translation. Paragraph 3 on page 295 of
26 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
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