Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 186

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    Yes, this is a copy of an original document. I mean a
 1wartime copy.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A 1943 document?
 3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes. But you have not seen this particular one in
 5the Auschwitz archives, or have you?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, this one is in Moscow.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     This one is in Moscow?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is from the captured files of the Auschwitz
10construction office which are at present in the Moscow
11archives?
12 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I draw your attention to the first line, the date 28th
14June 1943, right?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many documents have you seen in carbon copy which do
17not include the word "Auschwitz" and the following word,
18"Den", D-E-N?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     If this is a carbon copy, I presume it was a carbon copy
20of an original which was on a letter head.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     On the letter head it does actually say "Auschwitz", so in
23carbon copies one can have quite often just the date and
24no information about the place.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     But I cannot give a quantity in this case of how many

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 1documents I have seen.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     We go down now to the next line, which is what I will call
 3the letter register line, which begins with the
 4No. 31550. You will notice that that number is typed in
 5and not handwritten in?
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many documents have you seen in the Auschwitz
 8construction archives that have that letter register
 9number typed in on a carbon copy?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot say. I have seen it, but I cannot say how many
11copies.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     If I had my files with me right now, maybe I could show
14you examples of it typed in, but at the moment I am
15standing here just with one document.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I agree. I draw the attention of the Defence to what
17I call this discrepancy. The next event in that line is
18an oblique, stroke, followed by "JA.", JA period.
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many items have you seen in the Auschwitz construction
21office files which have a period after the JA?
22 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I am sorry. I cannot answer that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I appreciate that. I draw your attention to the
24next item which is an oblique stroke and the initials
25"Ne.-". How many items have you in the Auschwitz
26construction office files which have the initials "Ne" as

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 1a secretary, signing a letter dictated by Jahrling or
 2Jahrnish, or by the man whose initials are "JA"?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not quite sure I follow that question.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am sorry. Let me phrase it in two parts. Am
 5I correct in saying that the man whose initials are "JA"
 6was the man who dictated the letter?
 7 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Jahrling?
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes. Am I correct in saying that the following
10initials "Ne" would be his secretary?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any other letters whatsoever in the entire
1350,000 documents in the Auschwitz archives which have a
14secretary whose initials are "Ne"?
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Since you brought up the challenge a few days ago,
16I thought it was an "M" here. I mean, it seems to read as
17"M". I actually checked. I think I mentioned the name
18of the secretary a couple of days ago. It should be in
19the transcript because I checked. A 28 year old woman
20employed as a secretary at that moment in the
21Zentralbauleitung, I think.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You cannot remember her name?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Sorry, I cannot remember her name. I had all the
24documentation with me on Friday and on Wednesday.
25 MR IRVING:     Very well. Are you aware that his secretary,
26actually her name began with an "L" or his name began with

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 1an "L", and that of the 50 items which are in the
 2collection which we control or which I am advised exists,
 3dictated by this man, 49 of them have the secretary's
 4initials as "L" or "Lm"?
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot comment on that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. And that in none of these cases is there a
 7period after either the "JA" or after the secretary's
 8name? Can you comment on that?
 9 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I cannot comment on that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Clearly, the reason I am saying this, my Lord, is to give
11the Defence a chance to come back possibly with documents
12proving me wrong on these points?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think that is fair.
14 MR IRVING:     Will you now look five or six lines lower down to
15the address: "SS Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-hauptamt,
16Antsgruppenchef C". I draw your attention now to the
17following line. Is there anything missing from that line
18"SS Brigadefuhrer u. Generalmajor"?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Generalmajor SS that would have been normally.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Generalmajor der Waffen SS?
21 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any other documents whatsoever in the entire
23construction files of the Auschwitz office, either in
24Moscow or in the Auschwitz archives now, in which the
25words "Der Waffen SS" are omitted after the
26word"Generalmajor"?

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 1 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I cannot comment on that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the address is improper in its present
 3form; is that correct?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, he cannot comment.
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes. Well, my Lord, it is an incorrect rank.
 6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is an incorrect designation of a rank -- a very
 7important one because they were very particular,
 8particularly if they had the rank of a Brigadier General.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can be a Brigadefuhrer.
10 MR IRVING:     They were a Brigadier General in the SS and
11simultaneously they had a military rank in the Waffen SS.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you make it clear that it was an SS rank
13you were talking about, is that your point?
14 MR IRVING:     No. What I am saying, my Lord, is that the correct
15rank, the proper designation, of Hans Kammler was SS
16Brigadefuhrer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS, and in every
17other document which exists it is written out in full.
18     Those are the only comments I have to make on
19the face of the document, but possibly, Professor, you are
20qualified to comment on the content, and I am now purely
21dealing with the crematoria. Am I right in saying that
22crematorium (i) was already out of service on July 19th
231943?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It was taken out of service shortly before, but the
25crematorium was completely intact, which means it was
26never dismantled. The incinerations, because, as we have

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