Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 186

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I am reading your own words after the end of the
 2quote. "Each of these five sentences was untrue as will
 3be seen"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So you are discrediting Goebbels' total of the
 6dead, despite the fact that you know perfectly well that
 7even the Nazi people's court, or whatever it was called,
 8in 1939 came to a total of 91?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in that case 100 is untrue. Each of those figures
10is untrue. The point is I am pointing out exactly how
11unreliable Goebbels' diary is and I am saying, each of
12these five sentences is untrue, inaccurate. "No German
13property was damaged". There had been immense damage to
14German property. Things went off without a hitch.
15Exactly the contrary.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me this. Do you accept that, whatever else you may
17say passed between Goebbels and Hitler at the meeting at
18the Osteria, Hitler told Goebbels that he wants to take
19very sharp measures against the Jews, they must themselves
20put their business in order again, the insurance companies
21will not pay them a thing. Then the Fuhrer wants a
22gradual expropriation of Jewish businesses?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that was said.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was said and it happened, did it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     And it did happen, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On 12th November 1938 there was a conference chaired by

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 1I think Hermann Goring, at which I think probably
 2Dr Goebbels was present, at which very harsh measures in
 3accordance with the Fuhrer's wishes were taken against the
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is correct, Hermann Goring was head of the four
 6year plan and he was in a position to issue these
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not in your book, I think, Mr Irving, make
 9any connection between the meeting in the Osteria
10restaurant, which in fact on reflection was perfectly
11obvious, and the Goring conference of the 12th two days
12later, do you?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     You say that Dr Goebbels was present at that meeting.
14I do not believe he was actually present, but I may be
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know. Just have a quick glance -- I am not a
17historian, Mr Irving -- at the top of page 290 of Evans.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     290 of Evans?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we leaving now the passage at 278.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     He was present, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is a wider one than the 100 dead,
24is it not?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but I have been over that.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just put the question, so I get the

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     278 of Goebbels. I think the suggestion is
 4that there really is no basis for saying that the record
 5in the diary is such a complete misrepresentation of what
 6Hitler's express view was at the Osteria.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid I have not followed your Lordship's question.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, my fault. You see what you say
10about the diary entry?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You are saying that Goebbels is totally misrepresenting
13Hitler's attitude as expressed to him, Goebbels, at the
14Osteria restaurant on the 10th.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In as much as he has ----
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What is the basis for that? I think that is really the
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He has misrepresented the diary in as much as the diary
19suggested Adolf Hitler endorsed, triggered, ignited and
20wanted the pogrom to take the shape it had during the
21previous night.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but on what basis do you say that
23Hitler's view was something different from what Goebbels
24says in his diary?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This telegram, my Lord, the one that goes out at 2.56A.m.
26saying, this has got to stop.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You rely on that?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     And of course on the eyewitnesses von Behlo and von
 3Putkammer who talked to me in a manner that they probably
 4would not have talked to Professor Evans.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     How many years after the events, Mr Irving?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     1967. That would be 29 years later.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you show them the geschaften telegram of 2.56 a.m.?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     This telegram?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure if I had it at the time I saw them, but
11their own recollections were very, very clear because they
12were burned into their memories.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you say to them, Mr Irving, look at this telegram, you
14cannot be telling the truth, whatever their names were,
15because this telegram is limited to Jewish shops and the
17 A. [Mr Irving]     What they described to me was Hitler's anger on hearing
18that the synagogue in Munich was on fire, which news they
19brought to him. His response, "what on earth is going on,
20send for the police chief von Eberstein", the police chief
21arriving. He then said, "send for Himmler, send for
22Goebbels, let us get to the bottom of this". Then the
23orders were issued between 2 and 3 a.m.. This is their
24eyewitness account which they gave to me.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The answer to my question is no, you did not show them the
26geschaften telegram?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know. This interview is, what 32 years
 2ago? I do not know what documents I showed to them.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nor did you show them, I take it, von Eberstein's telegram
 4or message or whatever it was, of 2.10 a.m., saying in
 5effect, "carry on, chaps"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     A message with Eberstein's typed signature on the bottom
 7from police headquarters, where Eberstein was not, because
 8at that moment he was at Hitler's flat.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They had a telephone system in Munich in 1938, did they
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you have to take into account the factor of
12time. There is no such thing as instantaneous
13communication of ideas. They had to pick up the phone.
14They had to dial. They had to get through. They had to
15find the officer at the other end. Somebody had to take
16the message down, somebody had to type it on to the telex,
17they had to get open lines.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All of that can be done in about five minutes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think we are talking about the 1930s
20when everything was done manually, including telephone
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Eberstein already had the text of Muller's telex of 5 to
2312 that night, did he not, and he just recites it.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. There is no question that at the time those igniting
25orders went out in consequence of Dr Goebbels' speech at
26the old town hall, the executive branch, if you can put it

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