Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 186

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    Unfortunately, the documents operate the other way. We
 1the headed notepaper of the deputy of the Fuhrer, saying
 2from orders from the highest level these acts of arson and
 3similar things against the Jewish property are to cease
 4forthwith, a message sent out at high urgency, high
 5priority, at 2.56 a.m.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do we get those words "Jewish property" again? When you
 7were caught unawares with that document yesterday, you
 8correctly translated the word "geschaften" as shops.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The important element of that telegram is not the
10translation of the word "geschafte" but the fact that this
11is an order being sent out by Hitler's deputy saying, "The
12highest level has ordered these things to stop", at 2.56
13a.m. You cannot get out of that telegram. This is the one
14thing that destroys your entire case.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, it does not say it. It says the burning of
16Jewish shops and the like should stop.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     If you were right, Mr Rampton, that telegram would say
18"carry on, not enough, more so, more so", and in fact it
19says precisely the opposite.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not say precisely the opposite. We went through
21this yesterday, Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     If you are saying Adolf Hitler was behind the outrages,
23what is his deputy doing sending ought a telegram at 2.56
24a.m., of which you provided a copy yesterday, without the
25heading showing that it came from the Deputy Fuhrer,
26saying these outrages and the like against Jewish shops,

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 1Jewish businesses, are to stop.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     This is exactly the opposite of what Adolf Hitler would
 4have said.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, I am sorry, it will not do. You cannot get
 6round the wording of that telegram.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     You cannot get round the heading of that telegram.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait for the question.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     However much you may wish to inflate it, the fact
10is that it is specific as to Jewish shops and the like.
11Geschafte oder dergleichen.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is right. You do not need to check it,
13Mr Irving. That is right.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     "I directed No. 174/38 repetition of the telegram sent out
15that same evening, 10th November, on express orders from
16the highest level, acts of arson against Jewish businesses
17or the like, are not to take place under any circumstances
18whatever." Signed by the Deputy Fuhrer, and you cannot
19get round it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Well Mr Irving, I use your own translation given
21from the witness box caught unawares, "shops". Nothing
22about synagogues?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     If Adolf Hitler was totally endorsing what Goebbels was up
24to, he would have done exactly the opposite. He would
25have said, "carry on fellows, magnificent stuff, let's
26have more fires".

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You look at that message again, if you want. Where is the
 2reference to synagogues, houses and apartments?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Where is the reference to Adolf Hitler eagerly backing up
 4everything Goebbels was doing?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. You use that telegram as incontrovertible
 6evidence, to borrow one of your phrases, that Adolf Hitler
 7smashed his fist on the table and said, "this has all got
 8to stop". Look at it again.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Do not forget, I also have the eyewitnesses who were with
10him just before this telegram was sent out. I have his
11two adjutants.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I have each party's case.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     This is another of those pivotal items and this is very
14close to the horse's mouth.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I agree it is pivotal, but there is no point
16in thrashing through it again. We went through it
17yesterday. I understand both cases.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is just that my evidence is slightly better quality
20than his.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you save that up for the end of the
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, Mr Irving, laughter in court. Can we look at
24how you have finally come to deal with this Goebbels diary
25entry on page 278 of your book, Goebbels Mastermind of the
26Third Reich? It is the top of page 278 in the fourth line

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 1at the paragraph.
 2     "He made his report (on 'what to do next') to
 3Hitler in the Osteria, the Fuhrer's favourite Italian
 4restaurant, and was careful to record this" -- and you
 5insert "perhaps slanted" -- "note in his diary, which
 6stands alone, and in direct contradiction to the evidence
 7of Hitler's entire immediate entourage: "He is in
 8agreement with everything. His views are quite radical
 9and aggressive. The Aktion itself went off without a
10hitch. A hundred dead". Where did that hundred come
11from? I do not remember that. Anyhow, it does not
12matter. I thought it was 17 dead.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     17, yes.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It must be a subsequent entry in the diary.
15 MR RAMPTON:     "But no German property damaged".
16 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, remember I was operating from the handwritten
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I may have read the 17 as 100. It was in digits. I had
20the original.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You may be right, it may be a hundred.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed.
23 MR RAMPTON:     The official total at the end of it all was 91,
24was it not, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I take your word for it, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We do not find that figure in your book, I do not think,

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 1do we?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You have 100 here.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, that is Goebbels. You do not trust Goebbels. You are
 4just telling the readership in a moment each of these five
 5sentences was untrue. You are discrediting the figure of
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     On the previous page 276 I say, "191 of the country's 1400
 8synagogues had been destroyed; about 7,500 Jewish shops
 9had had their windows smashed. 36 ... had been murdered,
10and hundreds more badly beaten". I give a source for
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     36. That was an interim report by Heydrich some time on
13the morning of the 11th.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The final official figure was something in the region of
1691, was it not, dead?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That comes from the report of the people's court in
19February of 1939, does it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot quite understand what the criticism is. I have
21said on one page the interim figure was 36. I then say
22Goebbels talks of a hundred.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not the main point, I think.
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. You say Goebbels spoke of 100 and then you
25immediately say that that is untrue.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     What I say is "perhaps slanted", or what?

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