Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 186

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    Well, I do say and I do not accept it, Mr Irving. We went
 1through it yesterday. It is quite obvious that I do not
 2accept it. It is no good repeating it. We have been
 3through it. The judge will decide the question and then
 4see what happened in the next day's diary entry. If you
 5pass over to paragraph 4 on the same page, 282 of Evans --
 6the German, if you want it, is on tab 3 of the
 7Reichskristallnacht file. It is the beginning of the
 8diary entry, as I expect you know. "Following this first
 9conversation with Hitler on morning of 10th, Goebbels
10drafted an order to bring the pogrom to a halt.
11'Yesterday', he wrote on the 11th in his diary, 'Berlin.
12There, all proceeded fantastically. One fire after
13another. It is good that way. I prepare an order to put
14an amend the actions'". That is the one you have just
15told us about, Mr Irving. "'It is now just enough ... In
16whole country the synagogues have burned them. I report
17to the Fuhrer at the Osteria'." The German is printed at
18the bottom of the page if you want to look at it. The
19"Osteria" was a restaurant in Munich, I think, was it
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is still there, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not mind. It was, was it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And if we turn over the page, we can see what Goebbels
25reports of his meeting with Hitler at the Osteria
26sometime, presumably, on the 10th, in paragraph 5 on page

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 1283: "At the Osteria, Goebbels presented Hitler with his
 2draft order to stop the pogram. His diary entry
 3continued: 'I report to the Fuhrer in the Osteria. He
 4agrees with everything. His views are totally radical and
 5aggressive. The action itself has taken place without any
 6problems. 17 dead. But no German property damaged. The
 7Fuhrer approves my decree concerning the ending of the
 8actions, with small amendments. I announce it via the
 9press and raid. The Fuhrer wants to take very sharp
10measures against the Jews. They must themselves put their
11businesses in order again. The insurance companies will
12not pay them a thing. Then the Fuhrer wants a gradual
13expropriation of Jewish businesses"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Now, what holes can you pick in my account of that?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am coming to that in a moment, Mr Irving. Let us look
16at how you dealt with that entry, shall we, in a minute?
17That starts at paragraph 8. But, first, I want to draw
18your attention to what Goebbels did next, sorry, or before
19which is in paragraph 7: "On the afternoon of 10th
20November", that is after the meeting with Hitler at the
21Osteria, "Goebbels informed the Nazi Party chief of
22Munich-Upper Bavaria that the pogram was to be terminated,
23and added: 'The Fuhrer sanctions the measures taken so far
24and declares that he does not disapprove'". It is
25entirely consistent with the diary entry, is it not? Is
26it not, Mr Irving?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     What, what Evans wrote or what I wrote?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. What Goebbels wrote, "The Fuhrer sanctions the
 3measures taken so for and declares that he does not
 4disapprove of them"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Which passage are you translating?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am reading from the text of Professor Evans.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, I see. I thought you were looking at something hard
 8and concrete.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I told his Lordship that, unless forced to do so, I am
10going to keep off the German. It is much easier for
11us ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is working much better.
13 MR RAMPTON:     --- Anglophones. "The Fuhrer sanctions the
14measures taken so far and declares that he does not
15disapprove of them". That is exactly what Goebbels
16reported him as having said at the Osteria, is it not?
17Have you got the place in Evans, Mr Irving.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Paragraph 7?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to read three volumes simultaneously.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know it is difficult. The bottom of
21page 283.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     283?
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, 283.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Then it goes on ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you there, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am, but I am wondering where he gets the words "on the

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 1afternoon of". I mean, the timing appears to be
 2important, and ...
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Well, it is perfectly obvious. If he saw Hitler
 4on the day, at the Osteria, and Hitler said ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The note 107 refers to something dated November 11th.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not following your point, Mr Irving.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am wondering where he gets the phrase "on the
 8afternoon of November 10".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it matter?
10 MR RAMPTON:     Because it comes from the text of Goebbels'
11circular. If you look at what Hitler said to Goebbels at
12the Osteria, it is perfectly natural that later that day
13Goebbels should report that "Hitler sanctions the measures
14taken so far and declares that he does not disapprove of
15them". That is exactly what he had already said to
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we have a difficulty here. We have just one line,
18or one line from a message not from Goebbels but from a
19Gauleiter, from a Gauleiter's adjutant, the next day, in
20other words, it is already third-hand.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I am going to read on, Mr Irving. Top of 284: "In
22another circular", this is Evans, "sent out the same day
23to Gau propaganda officials, quoted in Irving's own book
24on Goebbels, and quite clearly reporting Hitler's views at
25the meeting in the Osteria, Goebbels added: 'An order is
26to be expected according to which the (cost of the) damage

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 1resulting from the anti-Jewish actions is not to be met by
 2insurance companies but by the Jews concerned themselves.
 3Furthermore, a series of measures against the Jews will
 4very shortly be implemented through the promulgation of
 5laws or decrees'." I am going to show you, if you have
 6forgotten, Mr Irving, what, in fact, happened next. But
 7I want you to look next ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am finding it very difficult to see what point you are
 9thrusting towards.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will see what point I am thrusting towards. Be
11patient. These things have to be built in blocks,
12Mr Irving. Look at paragraph 8: "How does Irving deal
13with this particularly incriminating diary entry? In
141992, when Irving first read the Goebbels diary entries
15for the period 9th to 10th November 1938, he was convinced
16that it showed that Hitler approved of the pogrom". Here
17is a quote from Mr Irving interviewed by Kurt Franz, CBC
18Newsworld in July 1992: "'According to his diary', that
19is Goebbels, 'and I can't emphasise those words enough,
20according to his diaries, Hitler was closely implicated
21with those outrages. And that's a matter of some dismay
22to me because it means I have to revise my own opinion.
23But a historian should always be willing to revise his
24opinion'"? So far, so good, Mr Irving. Let us see how it
26     1993, "A year later he was sounding a slightly

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