Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 186

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In his account of the events of 10th November 1938,
 3Goebbels wrote: 'New reports rain down the whole
 4morning. I consider with the Fuhrer what measures should
 5be taken now. Let the beatings continue or stop them?
 6That is now the question'."
 7     You, when you wrote about this in your Goebbels
 8book, said: "Goebbels went to see Hitler to discuss what
 9to do next. There is surely an involuntary hint of
10apprehension in the phrase". Why did you write that?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am, first of all, checking to see the original German
12text because he has not provided it to us, has he, or has
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Check it by all means. If we have to go
15through it, we will have to go through it, but we are
16trying to avoid doing that.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the reason for that is the translation of the word
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You can tell us.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you confirm that the word he has used for "now" is not
21"nun" but "nunmehr"?
22 MR RAMPTON:     I have no idea.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am telling you -- I have a pretty good memory of these
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why does it matter?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Why does it matter? Indeed. So what? "Nunmehr" conveys

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 1the hint of apprehension. "What do we do now?"
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You translate it in your book -- what you write is 277 of
 3Goebbels: "As more ugly bulletins rained down on him the
 4next morning, November 10th 1938, Goebbels went to see
 5Hitler to discuss 'what to do next'"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, "nunmehr".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the apprehension in that?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you understood German and you knew the nuances of
 9the German language, and any German sitting in this room
10would know there is a difference between the words "nun"
11nad "nunmehr". Am I correct? Is that the word used?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr irving, will you answer my question? Did you write,
13"He went to discuss with Hitler what to do next"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     "What to do now" and "what to do next", what is the
15difference? You explain to the court.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It might be right if the phraseology were apt to convey
17the impression, "Oh, dear. Whatever shall we do now?" but
18that is not what you translated it as?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to give the difference between "now", between
20"nun" and "nunmehr", and any German in this courtroom
21will know there is a strong difference. "Nunmehr" means
22"now more than ever" and this, I suspect, is why
23Professor Evans has not provided the original German here.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As a matter of fact, he has. Note 104, page
25282, he says the original German is "nunmehrige" which
26I think is the same as "nunmehr", in fact?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I wish we had had the entire text, but he has ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You are only quarrelling with that one word, as
 3I understand it?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, indeed, but there is big difference, of course,
 5between "nun" and "nunmehr", and I can only confirm that
 6any German will confirm this.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     The German is, Mr Irving -- excuse my
 8pronunciation once again, but I will read it slowly..
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     What page is the German?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen". End of line.
11The next line: "Ich uberlege mit dem Fuhrer unsere
12nunmehrigen Masnahmen". That is "our next measures", is
13it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking at the original translation in bundle L2 on
15page 3, the original German.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is on page 2, I think.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen ... unsere
18nunmehrigen Masnahmen". There you are, "nunmehr".
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "our next steps"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     But I have to try to explain once again, because you do
21not hesitate also to keep repeating yourself, that "nun"
22and "nunmehr" have two totally different nuances.
23"Nunmehr" in German means "now more than ever".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does it mean, "I discussed with the Fuhrer our next
26 A. [Mr Irving]     "... unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen".

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "our next steps"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, "what steps we should now take more than ever".
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is apprehensive about that?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The adding of the word "mehr" to "nun".
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then he goes on: "Weiterschlagen lassen oder abstoppen".
 6"Shall we go on thrshing them or stop" or "Shall we let
 7the thrashing go on or stop it", yes? "That is now the
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     "Weiterschlagen lasen oder abstoppen", that is right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Das ist nun die Frage"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     "That is now the question".
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. What is apprehensive about that?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Because he has been summoned to see the Hitler because the
14whole of Germany is in flames, messages coming in from
15diplomatic missions all around the world about it.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But they are contemplating letting it go on?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Goebbels is contemplating letting it gone on, "What are we
18going to do now?" This is Goebbels' diary, my Lord, not
19Hitler. Goebbels has been summoned before Hitler like a
20schoolboy who has painted something on the wall.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, who is meant to be being apprehensive? I took it to
22be Goebbels.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Goebbels is apprehensive, yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     About what?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That he had been summoned to see Hitler. Perhaps I should
26sketch in in two lines the background? Goebbels has been

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 1a very bad for the last six months. He has been caught
 2red handed in an appalling matrimonial scandal. He has
 3been threatened with this missile. He has contemplated
 4suicide. He thought he was doing Hitler a favour with
 5this little outrage and, to his horror, he has found out
 6he has done the exact opposite. He has been summoned
 7before Hitler and Hitler is now showing him the diplomatic
 8messages that have come in. Within a matter of an hour or
 9two, Goebbels has had to issue a telegram which is on the
10very next page, or page 279 of my book produces a
11facsimile: "Everything is to be stopped immediately. All
12the orders I issued yesterday are cancelled". Am the
13I right?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you are not right, Mr Irving. You are not right in
15your thesis. You are right in what that document says and
16it is sent to the propaganda chiefs. All that has been
17decided is, well, for the sake of foreign opinion and
18public opinion, we had better stop smashing up Jewish
19shops and killing Jewish people?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, this document which I reproduce in a
21facsimile is sent to precisely the people he ordered the
22day before to start all the pogrom.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say. We had that argument yesterday ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you keep saying "so I say", but I am the one who
25wrote the book.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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