Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 186

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     You may be right, but you may be wrong.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say "you may be wrong", you mean
 3there is another document very similar to 3051 which you
 4did in have in front of you?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, note 43 also refers to Karl Wolff which is a
 6source which I also used.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is another matter.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have to look and see what Karl Wolff said which
 9may very well be the source of that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, forget Karl Wolff. You have given ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, because -- I am not going to forget him because he is
12given in the footnote 43.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you have given 3052 as the reference?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     As one of the references.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is wrong, as you can plainly see from the document?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It follows, does it not ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It was another document.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- that the overlying probability is that you meant 3051
20which is, indeed, a telex from Heydrich at 1.20 a.m. on
2110th November?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is one telex from him at 1.20 yes, but if ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Wait, Mr Irving.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     --- if you look at the time scale, if you look at the time
25scale, these instructions I am referring to are unlikely
26to have got into a telex machine at 1.20 a.m. It would

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 1be closer to 2 a.m. that things like that went out, by the
 2time he has got back to police headquarters.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say he "hurried up to Himmler's room"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but they would not have had a telex machine in
 5Himmler's hotel room, my Lord. He would have had to go to
 6the local Gestapo headquarters or telephone instruction
 7for local headquarters and tell them to type a telex and
 8get this kind of thing out.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So your suggestion is there is another telex from
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Another source. I am not suggesting it is another telex.
12I am suggesting it is another source and I have referenced
13there Karl Wolff.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Let us suppose for a moment that a three year-old
15child will not buy that story, Mr Irving, and compare what
16301 says of what you wrote in the text, may we?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, shall we do that?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, let us look at the top of 263 of Professor Evans'
19report. The German is printed at the bottom. So if you
20want to read the German first, please do.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "On Himmler's instructions, they were to be sure some
22restrictions placed on the action", is that correct on the
23foot of page 262?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That is absolutely right. Now you see what they are
25on page 263.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have read that.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now tell me what foundation that provides for your
 2assertion that Heydrich's telex was "to protect Jews and
 3Jewish property and halt any ongoing incidents".
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, clearly, this is a different message I am referring
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. Clearly, you have deliberately
 7misrepresented the effect of this telex from Heydrich.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No, Mr Rampton. You are looking at a different message,
 9and you are saying, "This does not look like the one you
10are quoting" which is just what I am saying. You are
11right. It is not the one I am quoting.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is what you call 3052? Where
13physically is it?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, they have had complete access to all my files and
15we do not know which signals they have put in and which
16they have not put in.
17 MR RAMPTON:     It does not exist, Mr Irving?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It may not be a signal. It may be what Karl Wolff
19reported. Karl Wolff was with him at that time. I have
20referenced Karl Wolff in footnote 43 which your Professor
21Evans has overlooked.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first reference you give -- I am only going to ask
23this once more -- is 3052, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The reader will suppose that that is a reference to the
26text of the Heydrich telex?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, no. The 43 refers to everything from the beginning
 2of that paragraph, "What of Himmler and Hitler?" onwards.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, the reference you give for the Heydrich telex
 4is 3052, is it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     One of the two references, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It so happens that the true Heydrich telex is 3051?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It so happens that a Heydrich telex is 3051.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It so happens that 30512 has nothing whatever to do with
 9Reichskristallnacht at all?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you think is the probability -- that had you some
12other document which has disappeared which had the
13No. 3052 on it?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My documents have not disappeared. As you are familiar,
15I have given all my documents to the German archives.
16I have provided to you what relics I have, what remnants
17I have, of my document collection.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, now I would offer you the same opportunity,
19Mr Irving, as you kindly offered to us. You find 3052 and
20the text of a Heydrich telex which carries the information
21which you have put in the book.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, perhaps if you have the Karl Wolff's statement from
23the Institute files No. 317, then you will find precisely
24the content that I referred to.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we move on now, please?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     If you thought I was wrong, you would have actually

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 1produced to the court 317, the Karl Wolff statement, and
 2said, "Mr Irving, can you find that in 317?"
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are perfectly entitled to do that
 4yourself, but it does not, I think it is fair to say, meet
 5Mr Rampton's point which is that one of your references is
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     One of the references has a digit wrong, this is correct.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And the ball, if I may say so, is in your court to produce
 9the document that you say is 3052.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If I can do so, having given all my records away, this is
11true, but I shall certainly attempt to do so.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Now, Mr Irving, I want to come to the aftermath of
13Reichskristallnacht. I want to move on now to the
14aftermath, the next day, starting with Mr Goebbels --
15Dr Goebbels, I do beg his pardon. Can we start, please,
16and I promised I would stick Professor Evans and that is
17what I am going to, at page 281 of Professor Evans'
18report, please.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     What does he mean by "the inevitable Goebbels diary"?
20Does that not suggest a mind cast on the part of your
21expert in paragraph 1?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at paragraph 2, please, Mr Irving -- you can
23ask Professor Evans any number of questions you like
24subject to his Lordship's control, but I am not going to
25answer your questions, I am afraid. Paragraph 2 on page

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