Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 186

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    The Moscow archive presumably can be, as it
 1were, consulted to see if the document is there.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes, but, if it was in the Vienna trial in
 31971, I do not know that the Moscow archives have a lot to
 4do with it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What now? Mr Irving back into the box?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Shall I give your Lordship a little plan?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do, can I say something which
 8I actually said yesterday? I think it became called L2,
 9I think my L2 has gone back to you, but, in trying to go
10through yesterday evening, it really is impossible for me
11to follow it in the transcript when all I have is German
12documents, some of which have been partly translated in
13odd bits of Professor Evans' report. It is a nightmare
15 MR RAMPTON:     It will not surprise your Lordship to be told that
16I took that on board. What I am going to do today will
17involve no reference to German documents by me. It will
18consist of a document prepared with, I have to say, the
19most extraordinary skill and expedition by Miss Rogers in
20relation to Dresden. There is a file of Dresden
21documents. They are mostly in English. I shall not make
22reference to them myself, because they have been
23summarized in the little document that Miss Rogers has
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Contrary to my feeling yesterday evening, I am

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 1going to go to four topics in the aftermath of
 2Reichskristallnacht, but I am going to do those, unless
 3again I am pushed by Mr Irving to the German, exclusively
 4from Professor Evans' report.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do think that is easier. Can I at the same
 6time make this enquiry? It is important that we are clear
 7for later on. Looking at Kristallnacht, not the aftermath
 8of Kristallnacht, there are several points made in Evans
 9and Longerich, I think, which I do not think you
10cross-examine to specifically. It is not a criticism
11obviously, but does that mean they have gone out of the
12case, or what?
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is very difficult. I am very conscious of the
14amount of time that this case could take. That means I am
15also conscious of the amount of money it could cost my
16clients, never mind court time and the time of all the
17people involved. I have taken the view, right or wrong,
18that, if I have three or four, or maybe two or three, or
19even five or six, dead cert winners, to use a
20colloquialism, in any particular topic, I am not going to
21spend a lot of time having argy-bargy about minor points
22with Mr Irving. I have one more what I regard as dead
23cert winner to finish which is this business about ND3052
24or ND3051 because I have chased that it and I know the
25answer. But if your Lordship should take the view at the
26end of the cross-examination of my expert witnesses that

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 1certain points have gone from the case, well, why then
 2they have gone, but if Mr Irving should take up with my
 3expert witnesses things I have not cross-examined him
 4about, why, then they will come back into the arena.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But at the moment they are not in the arena.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is rather what I thought, but I think it
 8is quite important to be clear about it.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     If I have missed something out, something
10important, I miss something important and that is just too
11bad. But there has to be a sense of proportion in all of
12this, in my belief.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It might be something -- I have not got them
14in mind now -- there are some points that I think Evans
15attaches importance to on Reichskristallnacht which maybe
16we have not really touched on.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I agree there are some things in relation to
18eyewitness testimony. I am as mistrustful of that in
19general as is Mr Irving, and I prefer the original
20documents, and that is what I did yesterday.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am going back to one other original document in
23a moment.
24 MR IRVING:     I thought there was going to be a complex on the
25Adjutants we were going to hear about.
26 MR RAMPTON:     There may be something about the Adjutants along

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 1down the road, but I have not got to that yet. It is a
 2separate topic.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That clears the air a bit.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I have not given thought to what, if any,
 5Adjutants I am interested in.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if you go back we are starting
 7off now on Dresden.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No. I am going to finish Reichskristallnacht and
 9then I shall go to Dresden.
10 < MR DAVID IRVING recalled.
11< Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your Lordship and the witness will need a document which
13we dug out yesterday.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will need my L2 back too, will I not?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I do not know where it has gone. (To the
16witness): Mr Irving, can you please go back to your
17Goebbels book at page 276? At the bottom of that page we
18saw yesterday, we are going to read it again, you write:
19"What of Himmler and Hitler? Both were totally unaware
20of what Goebbels had done until the synagogue next to
21Munich's Four Seasons Hotel was set on fire around 1k
22a.m. Heydrich, Himmler's national chief of police, was
23relaxing down in the hotel bar, he hurried up to Himmler's
24room, then telexed instructions to all police authorities
25to restore law and order, protect Jews and Jewish
26property, and halt any ongoing incidents." You give us

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 1the reference No. 43, you give us the reference for that
 2on page 613, ND3052-PS?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now please look at the document I have just handed in.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in fact, there are two sources there. I have also
 6referenced Karl Wolff.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you please look at the document I have just handed
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is ----
11 A. [Mr Irving]     3052 -- yes, there is a mistake in the number.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have mistaken the number?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Professor Evans is right?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The correct number is 3051, is it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is probably 3051. There may be another one, but this
18is clearly the wrong one, but I have also referenced Karl
19Wolff as my source.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we please look then at what Professors Evans used as
21the translation of the key part of 3051 at the top?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Which, of course, I have not referenced.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you have not. But, Mr Irving, I suggest that you had
24it in front of you and you simply made a slip of the pen
25(as we all can) and called the document 3052 when, in
26fact, it was 3051.

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