Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 186

<< 1-5
    I had the impression you were not listen. I was able to
 1Dresden because there were not enough bodies to find.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that concludes my cross-examination on
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I have still repeated the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 in
 6my latest edition of the Dresden book. On my web site
 7edition I have drawn attention to the fact that the
 8figures are probably controversial which I think is the
 9correct way to go about it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that being so ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do sit down.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I have no further questions to ask Mr Irving this
13afternoon. The remaining topics are, there is a gentleman
14called Almeyer who was for a short time an officer at
15Auschwitz. I am not interested in, shall I say, the
16substance of Herr Almeyer's evidence, but I shall want to
17ask Mr Irving some questions about that. It is only about
18two questions. Then there is Moscow.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then there is who?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Moscow. My proposal for that, actually it is not
21mine again, it is Miss Rogers' clever plan and it is not a
22trick, she has produced a sort of schedule of events which
23I can spend a day wading through in court by reference to
24documents, but which does seem to us to be really rather a
25waste of time, since, as I think your Lordship has already
26observed, much of this may turn out to be common ground.

.   P-181

 1What we propose to do, particularly since it is only 20 to
 24, is to give your Lordship and Mr Irving a copy of this,
 3it is a similar sort of document to the one we have been
 4using this afternoon in relation to Dresden, and ask
 5Mr Irving to read it overnight and to mark on it those
 6areas which are in dispute. Then I can ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Irving, are you happy about that?
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not entirely happy about it. I was
 9not happy about this tabulation that was put in because of
10its tendentious nature in parts. They put in quotations
11extracts from quotations.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That the sort of thing that is slightly
13concerning me. That is not a criticism of Miss Rogers.
14 MR IRVING:     Some of them are deeply prejudicial they are before
15your Lordship. Your Lordship is a human being. If one
16reads the entire letter you can see what the entire letter
17was about in connection ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what I will say, and I understand
19your concern, is read whatever it is that is being
21 MR RAMPTON:     I will not give it your Lordship.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not suppose you mind me seeing it, do
24 MR RAMPTON:     He did say he was a bit worried it might colour
25your Lordship's mind or something to that effect.
26 MR IRVING:     It is already a selection of documents made from

.   P-182

 1their own bundles which are not agreed bundles.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, it will not do you any harm to read it,
 3if I may suggest.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am not easily harmed, Mr Rampton.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No, that is perfectly plain.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Read it and then we will see in the light of
 7your reading of it what we are going to do with it, if
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am quite happy for your Lordship to have one,
10but if Mr Irving is worried about it ----
11 MR IRVING:     I prefer if your Lordship waits until I have read
12the first ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say that and I think that is not
15 MR RAMPTON:     Then beyond that which I am going to do in the
16form of broad questions to which I expect to get negative
17answers, if necessary, I will put the questions, Mr
18Irving's political associations, and I will leave the
19detail to be dealt with by my experts so far as they are
20going to be witnesses.
21     Only perhaps at the end, or perhaps not, some of
22Mr Irving's utterances about, put bluntly, anti-Semitism
23and racism, for which there would be marked up files, by
24tomorrow morning, but I do not have them yet.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not, sort of, gone through to think of
26any other topics that may need to be covered, but I am

.   P-183

 1sure you have.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to have a trawl through the undergrowth
 3with Miss Rogers tonight to see if there is anything that
 4we have missed, but we do not think there is. Else. We
 5think that is all that is left.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Adjutants occurs to me.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I keep forgetting them because I do not like them,
 8I find them muddly, but the fact is there may be something
 9in them that I do need to do. I am hopeful that I will
10finish cross-examining Mr Irving by the end of tomorrow,
11if not sometime early on Thursday, but certainly this
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very helpful.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Then, my Lord, I tell your Lordship this, next
15week on Monday, Professor Browning will be here, and this
16is always subject to evidence that Mr Irving wants to
17call, because we are, in effect, unless he has finished
18his case at the end of this week, interposing. Then
19sometime when Professor Browning is finished, Professor
20Evans and following him, Dr Longerich.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
22 MR RAMPTON:     So that should cover the next couple of weeks, the
23beginning of next week, which means we have done actually
24pretty well on the time schedule.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. I have said this before, Mr Irving,
26but if you want a pause between the experts, I would be

.   P-184

 1more than happy to agree to that.
 2 MR IRVING:     I may well ask for one day before we take on Evans.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is entirely reasonable.
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes. Between the experts, I think we are ready for
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know, but my suspicion is that Professor
 7Browning will not in the witness box very long.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As we have a few minutes, I have a bit of a
 9mound of documents.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the cream sheet of paper just confirms
11what I said to you yesterday morning, just those points
12that I made, and I thought you might like to have that in
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING:     The other items belong in the Dresden clip of
16Dresden documents they gave you.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. I think what I will do with these is
18put them, whatever it was, L1.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes. I was going to give your Lordship a bundle of
20photographs, but I find these repulsive photographs
21probably sit better in the Dresden file where they belong.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I put that glossy brochure in the waste
24 MR IRVING:     I will retrieve it, if I may. I know you do not
25think very much of what we did to Dresden, but I do.
26 MR RAMPTON:     What do you mean?

.   P-185

<< 1-5