Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 186

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    I am not really going to quibble about this, because to my
 1The reason I want to look at it, my Lord, is because
 2Professor Evans by suppressing one word in a quotation
 3from a certain letter has totally reversed another
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are absolutely entitled and right to ask
 6to look at it.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Here I am going to have to say I want to hear the sound
 9recording to see if I said five times or not or four
10times. If they are going to quibble on that kind of word
11I want to what hear if I said four or five.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not a quibble.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a quibble.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said yourself, Mr Irving, that the figures are exact.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I think it is important I should know whether
16I said four or five. Is that This Week recorded by the
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I think so.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I will listen to it at home. I have it on tape.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By all means do.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please do.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, remember the Leuchter press
23conference? My Lord, I am sorry, I have jumped a date,
2423rd June 1989, page 11 of the table. I have got the
25transcript here.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the reference? It is in D2

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     The actual file is D2(i) tab 5, page 10.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. Does Mr Irving have a copy?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     You start at the bottom of page 9. This is the
 6question and answer session of the Leuchter press
 7conference. Does your Lordship have it?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes I have.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, have you got it? I am starting with
10Irving at the bottom of page 9. "I am suggesting to you
11alternative explanations to the gas chambers, because
12obviously as the gas chamber now turns out to be phoney,
13then we have to try to explain what happened to the
14figures". I think you probably meant the people.
15     "Now one possible reason is the large number of
16Jews that turned up in the state of Palestine which is now
17the state of Israel. Jews in Israel did not come from
18nowhere. Another part of them when Auschwitz was
19liberated was set out on the roads and shipped westwards
20where they ended up in cities like Dresden".
21     Pause there, Mr Irving. What evidence do you
22have that any of the people from Auschwitz went to
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I say cities like Dresden.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us read on in the light of that answer.
26     "I do not have to tell you what happened in

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 1Dresden three weeks after Auschwitz was evacuated by the
 2Germans. One million refugees on the streets of Dresden
 3at the time when we burnt Dresden to the ground killing
 4anything between 100,000 and 250,000 of them"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of whom ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Of the 1 million people on the streets of Dresden.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One million refugees on the streets of Dresden.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     One million people on the streets of Dresden.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "One million refugees on the streets of Dresden at the
11time when we burnt Dresden to the ground killing anything
12between 100,000 to 200,000 of them."
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Of them.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The refugees?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Dresedens, the people in Dresden.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can well understand a degree of ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Hyperbole.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sloppy expression in answer to a question. Of course
19I understand that. Although you say refugees, I do not
20suppose you meant that 250,000 refugees were killed in
21Dresden, any more than you meant that 250,000 refugees
22from Auschwitz were killed in Dresden?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am giving the upper and lower limits.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1989 where does the figure of 250,000 as an upper limit
25come from, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It comes in the war years from the records that I saw, as

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 1the upper limit, hence the estimate that was put to Adolf
 2Hitler on the morning after, but also over the intervening
 3years I received very large numbers of letters from 1960
 4onwards when I was writing the Dresden book, from 1960
 5right up to 1989, that is almost 30 years I received
 6persistent letters from people who said it cannot possibly
 7have been as low as X; it must have been as high as Y.
 8Nearly all of them gave as the upper limit the figure of
 9250,000. So I am stating here limits in my view; not more
10than 250,000, not less than 100,000.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you attach credence, do you, to letters
12like the ones you have just mentioned, giving an upper
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Not only to that, my Lord, I also mentioned the documents
15during the war years which also mentioned that kind of
16figure. It is an upper limit, however improbable and a
17lower limit, however equally improbable, without setting
18the figure in between which on this occasion I consider to
19be more accurate, given as an answer to a question, a
20belligerent question, at a press conference.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I think the latest figures I have from you are
22probably in the Goebbels book. I notice, in passing, that
23in the republication of Dresden, the focal point edition
24of 1995, you say in the introduction: "Between 50 and
25100,000", in the text, "up to 100,000". In Goebbels you
26say, "Between 60 and 100,000 men, women and children".

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is having read the latest accounts that had come
 2from East Germany, which I consider to be very impressive,
 3which were published, I suppose, within the last three or
 4four years or five years.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is Dr Professor Herr Reichert an East German?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     My recollection is that the book was sent to me by the
 7East German Government -- by the Dresden City
 8Authorities. I think it is the last item in your clip, is
 9it not? The last item I saw anyway was a letter, yes,
10just above tab 3, my Lord. 1997, yes, they sent me a copy
11of that book. There had been several newspaper accounts
12also based on it.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am trying to find the Reichert's final estimate which
14I think is about 25,000.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is that?
16 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, 511 of Evans. Dresden historian, yes,
17you can call him an East German, if you like. I prefer
18just to call him a German?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     "Central German", perhaps.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From Dresden, a Dresdener?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     500?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     511.
23 MR RAMPTON:     511, paragraph 6.
24 MR RAMPTON:     "Many historians accept the 35,000 figure".
25Pommerin, Sherry. "For instance, the historian, Earl A
26Beck", who seems to be an American, "said the constant

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