Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 186

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do think, bearing in mind how much time,
 2energy and money has been spent on preparation for this
 3case, that that sort of thing really ought to have been
 4done. It is not fair. He has enough to contend with.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is about ten or eleven pages in to that
 7tab 3.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it, yes.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry about this. The last sentence of the
10long paragraph in the middle of the page, Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are talking about Dresden: "The death toll of that
13night's massacre would rise to over 100,000".
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where did that figure come from, Mr Irving?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is my figure.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really an answer, is it?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Certainly it came out of your head, but what is it
19based on?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     All my books come out of my head.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, sure. What is it based on? You accuse poor
22Mr Miller of being a fantasist.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not purporting to write something from my own
24experience, which Miller was. If this is my best estimate
25on the evidence that I have up to that point when I wrote
26this manuscript, which was 1980 something, my best

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 1estimate of what I knew. This would be about 1984 that
 2I wrote that.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1991?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Previously, of course, I had said 135,000, so I am
 5bringing the figure down by now.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we turn over two pages in this file -- one page will do
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know. This is from Hitler's War 1991.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you are writing about, I think, the reaction to
12Dresden. I have not read this page 738 but am I right
13about that?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The reaction in Berlin?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You remember this book is viewing everything from
17inside Hitler's bunker.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course, I understand that. When you write at the top
19of the page, therefore, tell me if this is right, the
20night's death toll in Dresden was estimated at a quarter
21of a million, that was the estimate that Hitler was being
22given, probably by Goebbels. Is that right?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Not by Goebbels necessarily, but it is quite clear by this
24time, when you have been reading 739 pages of this book
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not want to take any false point. That is not an

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 1estimate you are giving to the reader of your own?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the 1995 edition -- wait a minute, I have leapt ahead
 4of myself. We will come back to it, Mr Irving, when we
 5have the document, but I just want to ask the question
 6whether you remember on 28th November 1991 saying in an
 7interview with This Week that there were 25,000 killed at
 8Auschwitz and that "we (that is Allies) killed five times
 9that number in Dresden in one night"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I probably would have said four times or five times.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Check it.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I would have to see what I said.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you did say that, what it means is that you are saying
14to the viewers on 28th November 1991 that 125,000 were
15killed at Dresden ?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I would need to know exactly the words I used in that
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Rather than leave these things dangling in
19the air. Have we not got that somewhere?
20 MR RAMPTON:     The files have been taken away to be marked up for
21another purpose which your Lordship knows, the K files.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have probably got them here, have I not?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship probably ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would much rather not leave points hanging
25in the air or we will forget about them.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     If your Lordship knows can I know too?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was going to show you my copy. I am not
 3going to keep it from you. The whole point was to show it
 4to you.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot tell your Lordship where to look, I am
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you tell me even the letter of the
 9 MR RAMPTON:     The date is 28th November 1991.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the file called?
11 MR RAMPTON:     K3, says Miss Rogers.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a transcript of a Thames Television This Week
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is a transcript of an interview with you
16This Week.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Somebody has removed my K3.
18 MR RAMPTON:     What I am going to do is to read out your exact
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I always like to see the context of what things are being
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is going to be shown to you.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to show you the whole page and a half
24that I have. I am going to read it out and if you have
25read it and say I have missed something or I am being
26selective, then please tell us.

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 1     The interviewer, whose name I know not, asked
 2you: "So what is the point of quibbling about the exact
 3number of Jews that were killed by Hitler? Irving: Exact
 4numbers are important. Look at Auschwitz, about 100,000
 5people died in Auschwitz. Most of them died of epidemics
 6as we know now from code breaking", that is to Hinsley
 7decrypts. "So even if we are generous and say a quarter
 8of them, 25,000 were killed by hanging or shooting, 25,000
 9is a crime, that's true. 25,000 innocent person executed
10by one means or another, but we killed that many people,
11burning them alive in one night, not in three years in a
12city like Faucheim. We killed five times that number in
13Dresden in one night, equals 125,000."
14 A. [Mr Irving]     We killed I think 17,000 in Faucheim in one night and five
15times that is less than 125,000.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but that is not rally the relevant bit,
17is it?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely why I would like to see the original
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let Mr Irving have a look at and see if and
21make any point you want.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not really going to quibble about this, because to my
23mind if I said it is 125,000 and Mr Rampton says it is
24only 100,000 in my mind, or you said only 100,000 before,
25this kind of chiselling around major catastrophes I find
26regrettable, repugnant. I will have a quick look at it.

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