Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition
Pages 161 - 165 of 186
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1 A. [Mr Irving] If they count 18,375 killed, that means they have had the
2actual bodies stretched out in front of them and they have
3done a head count. If you see the damage to the city of
4Dresden, the way it was, you will know there were not
5bodies in the centre of the city. There were just heaps
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My impression was -- I probably got this
8wrong -- that they actually were rather thorough in the
9Altmarkt and that they did try and identify all the bodies
10that were there. Is that wrong?
11 A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, if you look at the second page, you will see them
12doing some of the identification. The bodies have been
13laid out, there are the horses, they have been taken off
14the horse drawn carts, but these are not bodies that have
15been cremated in cellars. These are bodies that have been
16taken into the Altmarkt to be cremated.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, but I think you just said, did you not ----
18 A. [Mr Irving] They have done what they could. They have taken the
19rings, they have looked at the inside of the rings to see
20the initials that are engraved inside the wedding rings.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] When you refer to heaps of ash, I thought you were seeking
22to suggest that you did not know who had been incinerated
23in the Altmarkt.
24 A. [Mr Irving] Certainly, these ones, the big funeral pyres, they would
25have done what they could to identify them and that is
26what Funfach is doing in the photograph in the centre of
1the book I showed you, but in the Hamburg air raid it is
2very clearly described, in fact in horrible detail about
3what people found when they went into the basements and
4what they found when they went into the bunkers. In
5Hamburg alone 48,000 people were killed. That was in a
6city that had been completely prepared for air raids with
7air raid shelters and bunkers and anti-aircraft guns, and
8the city was aware what air raids were, they had air raid
9sirens. This was a city with a million refugees, many of
10them camping out in the open streets with no shelters.
11 MR RAMPTON: Now, Mr Irving, a little bit of arithmetic, if you
12do not mind. I added together the prediction, 25,000, in
13the situation report 1404, to the 35,000 missing.
14 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Making 60,000.
16 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is already an exaggeration because, if you base your
18prediction on a figure of 18,375, some part of those
19predicted 25,000 are going to come from the 35,000
20missing, are they not?
21 A. [Mr Irving] I think these are very round figures indeed. Nobody knew
22how many people were in the city that night because of the
23refugees that had poured in from Bresslau and all the
24eastern provinces fleeing the Russian advance.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you push it as far as you possibly can and assume that
26all the missings are going to have to be added to the
118,375 as dead people, quite ignoring the probability that
2the whole lot of them actually just left and were never
3found again, at any rate by 22nd March, you only get a
4figure of 53,000, and that is a pie in the sky, over
5optimistic in your terms, exaggerated estimate even then,
6is it not?
7 A. [Mr Irving] I did all these calculations at the time back in the
81960s, backwards and forwards from every possible
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well then, why did you write in Hitler's War in 1991, page
11739, the night's death toll in Dresden was estimated at a
12quarter of a million?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Because it was. The estimates that came to Hitler on that
14day were quarter of a million.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you just go a little slowly at the
17 A. [Mr Irving] I am sure that Mr Rampton has anticipated that answer
18because I can see a little triumphant smile coming.
19 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I mean really ----
20 A. [Mr Irving] It is so obvious that ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may, I would just like to have a look at
23 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What we have not done so far is seen what
25Mr Irving was writing in his books as opposed to writing
26to the Provost----
1 MR RAMPTON: That is what I am coming to now. I have leapt into
2the future because it is very interesting to see what
3Mr Irving made of this information. I will take it a
4little more slowly perhaps.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the end this is what matters, is it not?
6 MR RAMPTON: Of course. Oh, of course.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are there any earlier references than
9 MR RAMPTON: These came to light in 1977, so I will start after
10that, if I may. Your Lordship in tab 3 will see a page,
11I think page 18, of the book Goring by Mr Irving, which
12was published in 1989.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to have to have an index to these
14files, am I not?
15 MR RAMPTON: I hope so. I hope I get one, too. You must have
16an index and it would be very nice to have an index for
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I am talking about.
19 MR RAMPTON: You should, if I may say it, and I am not
20criticising anybody, so that everybody can hear ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that it gets done.
22 MR RAMPTON: You should have, I think, an index for the whole
23set of files, and in each file there should be a separate
24index so far as possible.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. The unfortunate thing is that I really
26need one when these files are produced, not later.
1 MR RAMPTON: I know. Your Lordship will find in the table, if
2your Lordship turns to page 11, that the mistress of the
3documents has written in the reference.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I was forgetting that.
5 MR RAMPTON: Page 18. This is in 1989, and this by Mr Irving's
6standards, I have to say, is a relatively conservative
8 A. [Mr Irving] What page are you on? Page 18 you say?
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Page 18 of the file, Mr Irving, yes, page 554 of the
10book. At the bottom of the big paragraph in the middle of
11the page you are writing about Dresden and you write in
12the last sentence: "The death toll of that night's
13massacre would rise to over 100,000".
14 A. [Mr Irving] I cannot find it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is the last sentence of the big paragraph in the middle
16of the page.
17 A. [Mr Irving] Which book are we at?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Goring, page 454 at the top, 18 in a round circle in blue
19biro at the bottom right hand corner.
20 A. [Mr Irving] I have no round figures on mine. Is this in tab 3?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you do not have pagination on the bottom
22you are going to have----
23 MR RAMPTON: You will find a Goring between two black lines.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Somebody really ought to have paginated that
26 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I quite agree.
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