Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 186

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    I did read the figures out, but your Lordship
 1and it had all the right signatures on it.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Broadly speaking, they are all saying the
 3same thing.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The statistics are exactly the same.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What puzzles me is why you do not accept --
 7I suppose the reason why you do not accept these three
 8more or less unanimous reports are the reasons you have
 9just listed from 1 to 4. Is that right?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The underlying reason is that the report specifically
11states that this is the status as of March 10th, at which
12sometime the city was still completely ruined. The
13cellars had not been cleaned out. The whole of the centre
14of the city, I am sure your Lordship has seen the
15photographs of what Dresden looked like afterwards. They
16did not have the manpower to dig out the bodies, whatever
17figure he gave was an estimate. He said we have done this
18so far. We have counted these bodies. The latest book
19published by the East German authority goes into enormous
20detail. They have now dug out of the archives the
21cemetary registers of how many bodies were delivered to
22the local cemeteries and how many rings were taken off the
23bodies and how many shoes were taken off the bodies and
24shipped off to be recycled elsewhere.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Frankly, truck loads of shoes were taken off the bodies.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Do you know how many bodies were discovered under
 2the ruins of Dresden between 8th May, that is the day of
 3the German surrender, in 1945 until 1966?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have read what the latest book says on that and it
 5is very illuminating. They have done a very thorough
 6piece of research on that.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1800. Do you know that between 1990 and 1994 when I have
 8no doubt Dresden was being extensively rebuilt after
 9reunification, they found no bodies at all?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If you see the heaps of ashes, do you think they
11managed to keep account of the heaps of ashes? You are
12not looking, Mr Rampton, but you will see the photograph
13here, the heaps of ashes in the background.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Put your horrid photograph away, please, Mr Irving.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Two photographs.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me how many people.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You see heaps of ashes and you tell me how they can count
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me how many people you think were incinerated in the
20Altmarkt after the 13th to 15th February 1945?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Large numbers.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me how many. 35,000?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Large numbers were incinerated.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maximum of 9,000, is it not?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Give us your best estimate, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know, my Lord, not off the top of my head without

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 1looking at the figures.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Where did the 35,000 missing people go? They have
 3not been found in the ruins. You cannot incinerate that
 4number in the Altmarkt. Where did they go, Mr Irving?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever read -- I will not put this as a question.
 6I have read the report of the police chief of Hamburg on
 7the after effects of the British fire storm air raid on
 8Hamburg, which described how, in the cellars and bunkers,
 9they just found heaps of ashes, because the bodies had
10just self incinerated inside these buildings in the heat.
11Tell me how you can count them.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The fact is, Mr Irving, that the scientific, the cold
13objective, clear headed assessment of those who
14investigated this matter in depth cannot get you beyond
15the figure of 30 to 35,000, at the very most, for those
16that died. Is that not right?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, answer my question, please.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     If you have been to Dresden, I have not been to Auschwitz
20but I have been to Dresden and I have been to the cemetary
21where they buried the bodies, and there is a big monument
22above the mass grave which says in a German poem: How
23many lie here? Who knows the number? Nobody knows.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I repeat my question. I am not going to get an answer,
25I know, where did the 35,000 missing go? They are not
26found under the ruins, they cannot be burnt in the

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 1Altmarkt. Where they have gone?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I gave one answer and that is to say a large number were
 3cremated live in their homes. I do not think you have any
 4perception of what a fire storm does to a city. There is
 5not very much left in the centre after it has passed.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you been in one, Mr Irving?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I spent 3 years of my life investigating this one. I am
 8deeply ashamed of what we did.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, it is my fault. I am not quite
10understanding your question about where did the missing
1135,000 go.
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, one of the documents said, I think it was
13the final report, no, it was the other document, situation
14report No. 1404, page 547 of Professor Evans' report, my
15Lord, paragraph 3, I will read it:
16     "Simultaneously on 13th May 1966 the West
17German archivist, Dr Boberacht, drew Irving's attention to
18the discovery of a document in the Federal Archive in West
19Germany that confirmed the authenticity of the final
20report (that is to say the real one). Amongst the
21situation reports on air raids on Reichs territory dated
22between 23rd February and 10th April 1945 situation report
23No. 1404 of the Berlin chief of police", that is the
24Berlin chief of police Mr Irving, "dated 22nd March 1945
25had appeared, a document dated the very same day as TB47.
26In it the same data were recorded as in the final report

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 1including the then current death roll of18,375".
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell me what page you are on, please.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     547.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     "A predicted death roll of 25,000, that is total,
 5and a figure of 35,000 missing". Now, Mr Irving, if,
 6which is insane, but if you propose that all those 35,000
 7were incinerated in the fire storm as opposed to some
 8proportion at least having fled the city and not come
 9back, particularly if they happen to be refugees, if you
10add those together, what is the total that you get?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. Tell me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     60,000, is it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     If you look at page 9 of the first major report dated
14March 15th, where it says, "personal damage, damage to
15persons", it says: "By 10th March in the morning we
16determined 18,375 killed, 2,212", these are actual bodies
17they have counted.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No 2,212 is badly wounded, not bodies.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am saying badly injured, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So some of those might die.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     350,000 homeless.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     350,000 homeless.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Right.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not incinerated in a fire storm.

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