Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 186

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    I think, if you want to and I see why you
 1want to, I think we should. The difficulty I have is that
 2I do not quite know where they are.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Pages 6 and 7 of the little bundle, the one with the
 4photograph in the front.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Has Mr Rampton got this?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Everyone has it.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I hope so.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is page 6, right at the back, my Lord, the last two
 9pages. Unfortunately, my secretary has stapled in inverse
10order. That kind of thing happens. Alterations in the
11text of destruction of Dresden resulting from -- I draw
12your attention, my Lord, to the very last item on page 2
13of the last but one. Delete this appendix, the order of
14the day, No. 47, so that was out.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait a minute.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am beginning to understand why this document is not
17before the court until I brought it this morning.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Are you referring to the English edition page numbers?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     This was the Corgi edition, but the same document went to
20all the publishers. It is dated August 28th, as can you
21see. It is the same date as my reply to the Italians.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we got the Corgi edition?
23 MR RAMPTON:     S of it. I have not got the whole.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This exercise is not going to achieve much
25unless we know what is actually in the Corgi edition.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Except, my Lord, if you look at the long paragraph I am

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 1saying to insert on the second half of the first page ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Page 226?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That is my treatment of the new evidence.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I am reading it.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That was my take on the new documents as of that day.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is the paragraph underneath the big paragraph
 7which is going, you are suggesting, to go on to page 226,
 8which starts "These figures must be regarded with extreme
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That is still my position to this very day, in fact.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, is it? I see.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I am curious that this was not included in your bundle.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not worry, it was not deliberate. Miss Rogers could
14not find it.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It was not suppressed in any way, was it?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, of course not. It is in the bundle anyway, Mr Irving,
17if you bothered to read the papers. This is a bundle
18prepared by us. Suppress, my foot!
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in now.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, can we put it in this bundle?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was thinking exactly the same thing.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It should go behind the letter to Miss Calabi, should it
23not, so it should be 65A and B.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is this going?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It should be behind the next one actually, behind 65A. It
26should become 65B perhaps.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     65B and C. You have written in similar terms to
 2Miss Amy Howlett, I see, on 28th August?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I wrote to all the publishers who at that time had the
 4book under licence.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, Mr Irving, let us get to grips with it. What are
 6your reasons for being suspicious of the new figures which
 7suggest a maximum of, say, 30,000?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it was not a maximum of 30,000. He mentions of
 9course all the numbers of those missing, and so on.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 35,000 missing. A whole lot of people fled the city,
11did they not, after the bombing?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The reasons for my being suspicious, even of those
13figures, are, firstly, the statements by Mehnert and
14Fetsher as quoted by Funfach. Secondly, comparison of the
15disaster that had befallen Dresden with the disasters that
16had befallen similar cities under similar conditions.
17Thirdly, the statements by large numbers of Dresden
18civilians that they considered those figures to be far too
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is hard documentary evidence dating from the period
21by the Nazis themselves.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Fourthly, that the man who drew up the report dated March
2310th 1945, the police chief of Dresden, was ipso facto
24also in charge of civil defence precautions for Dresden,
25the air raid shelters and so on, and so, if there had been
26a huge casualty resulting from inadequate provision of air

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 1raid precautions, he was largely to blame himself, so he
 2would have every justification to keep his estimates as
 3low as possible.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it not odd? He has therefore doctored both reports,
 5has he, or had them doctored?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not saying he has doctored them, but the police chief
 7of a German city was also ex-officio the head of the air
 8defence precautions for that city. He was in charge of
 9ensuring the underground air raid shelters, the static
10water tanks and so on. In the case of the biggest
11disaster in German history like this, he must have been
12deeply conscious of the fingers being pointed at him for
13having provided no air raid shelters and inadequate air
14raid precautions for the city.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, Mr Irving, what is your rational, calm, best estimate
16of the likely death toll at Dresden now?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     In the latest edition of my book, Apocalypse in Dresden,
18which was published two years ago, I think I estimated
19that the best margins for the figures which I would accept
20would be between 60,000 and 100,000, which brings down the
21original figure that I suggested substantially, which
22still puts me in a bracket above that contained by the
23police chief of Dresden. But I have explained in that
24book the reasons for these calculations. I have not just
25stated this as being gospel. They are not carved in
26letters of stone.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, this all started with a document
 2coming to light and I am trying to find where that is,
 3because I do not think we ever looked at it, did we?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Which was that, my Lord?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This particular line of cross-examination all
 6started with a particular document coming to light, the
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Two documents, my Lord.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am trying to find it in the table and I do
10not think we have looked at it, have we?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is almost illegible, my Lord. It is printed as an
12appendix to the Corgi edition of the book. It is page 1
13under tab 2, that is, the major police report, and on page
148 of tab 2 there is the minor one which was found in the
15West German archives.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you very much. That is very helpful. We have not
17actually even read what Evans says it says.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I have given the figures. They are here. We will
19look at Evans if your Lordship pleases, 546
20and 547. There is no dispute about what they say, I do
21not think, and there is no dispute about their
22genuineness, as far as I know.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but I need to know, do I not.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I did read the figures out, but your Lordship
25should see them. On page 545 your Lordship should start,
26which is the so-called final report of 15th March 1945,

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