Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 186

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I do, yes, at least.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And it is a point that would not have been
 3apparent if Mr Irving had not spotted it.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Fortunately I took the lunch hour to read the whole
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Well, the whole thing is translated in different
 7places, I agree ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     But may I enquire at this stage whether the report of my
 9conversation with Grosse's widow, the Police Chief's
10widow, is in this file? I cannot see it.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have no idea.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Right. That also appears to be a relevant document.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you have to make your own case. If there are
14documents which you think we have not included in the
15bundle which are going to undermine what any of my experts
16say in his report, then you must produce them.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I should explain that the person who wrote this
18Tagesbefehl No. 47, Colonel Grosse, I tracked down his
19widow and interviewed her at length.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I knew that, but I had forgotten the
21significance of that.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, she confirmed that, yes, she remembered her husband
23talking to her about that kind of figure.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     202,000?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Now you also corresponded in February 1965,

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 1Mr Irving, with somebody called Theo Miller, did you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Theo Muller.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I have him as "Miller". Unfortunately, once again
 4the copies -- M-I-L-L-E-R -- my Lord, this is page 538 of
 5Professor Evans' report ---
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     --- and page 6 of the table. This is written in
 8English, apparently. One can probably see from reading
 9what it says. My Lord, there is quite a lot of Miller and
10I do wish to draw attention to all of it. 538 to 540.
11Might I ask that your Lordship and Mr Irving ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I would be grateful for the opportunity.
13 MR RAMPTON:     --- read it to yourselves. Now, you have read
14those passages?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From Mr Miller's letters. Were they all in English?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no recollection at all of this man, but it appears
18to be a letter written in English by this German.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There were two.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do we know where he was living? Was it West Germany
21or East Germany?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea. One of the 7th February and one of the
24 A. [Mr Irving]     This is one problem. We are seeing only an extract like
25this rather than the whole letter.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we will assume he is in East

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 1Germany. He is probably still in Dresden, is he not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is my suspicion.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     He has told you that he was a member of the
 4Dresden clearing staff.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I just wanted to develop what I was saying there.
 6Presumably the same kind of constraints operated on him as
 7operated on Funfach when he wrote letters.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     His name had not gone public.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No but he is aware that any letter he writes from East
10Germany to England is going to be opened and read.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Taking all that into account Mr Irving, that
12account from a man who, if he is telling the truth, was on
13the spot and could be expected to know the truth figures,
14if correct, totally exploded the 200 to 250,000 figure,
15did it not? This is in February 1965.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do we find any reference to Mr Miller's account of the
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Anyone can play this game, Mr Rampton.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, that is not an answer.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just explaining.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes or no?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is no. I do not think so anyway, but there are
24very many witnesses who wrote to me who did not finally
25get mentioned in the resulting book.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No. You have mentioned what may be a third or

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 1fourth hand hearsay account numerous occasions, apparently
 2derived from Dr Funfach but which Dr Funfach denies.
 3Great faith you place in that third, fourth hand denied
 4account of Dr Funfach. Do you not think that the account
 5of Mr Miller ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the third or fourth?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who claims to have been there, deserves a place by way of
 8balance at the very least?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the third or fourth hand account?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Answer the question and go back to that.
11I think the answer is obvious.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not. I will go back to that in a minute. Do
13I think this deserves a place? The answer is no.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Why?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Because we have better quality evidence from somebody
16better placed to know.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is that?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     General Mehnert.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is dead.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I quote you the letter of 19th March 1965, page 51?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am really not going to stop you at all, but
22I suspect Mr Rampton would you like to just maybe answer
23one or two more questions about Miller first.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I was just stating in principle that anyone can play that
25game, that is where your Lordship stopped me earlier,
26picking documents that back up your own case and ignoring

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 1the rest, which is precisely what I am accused of.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, Mr Irving. You mistake me completely.
 3I am not trying to prove a case about the number of deaths
 4at Dresden one way or another. This is a mistake you
 5habitually make. You make the same mistake in relation to
 6Auschwitz and elsewhere. No, Mr Irving. I am wondering
 7why it is that an honest, upright, careful, meticulous,
 8open minded historian does not mention two alternative
 9sources, the one of which claims to be a direct witness of
10what happened.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that nowhere in my Dresden book do I state
12that there are authorities which hold that lower figures
13are more accurate? Is that what are you are suggesting?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     And that this person is not included among those
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am very puzzled why an open minded historian desiring to
18give a balanced account of what the figures might be would
19not include this man who, on the face of it, appears to be
20a very powerful witness for the opposition.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed. I am sure that Evans will have seized all the
22particular letters that run in that vein and said, here
23are all these ones and let us ignore all the rest, the
24same as he has ignored the figures that are presented in
25Funfach's letters.

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