Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 186

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But that is nothing to do with it. That is before the
 2semicolon. I do appreciate your difficulty, Mr Irving,
 3because you are being asked to produce the source for
 4something out of a ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     35 years ago.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- very, very large quantity of documents.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     With respect, I see little difficulty. This is quite
 8clearly sufficient material to identify the circles from
 9which the information came which I wrote that paragraph
10on, namely there is an American Government report citing a
11report by the International Red Cross Officer, Mr Kleiner;
12that Mr Kleiner has visited Dresden and toured camps in
13and around the City; during that tour he has been told
14figures by Mr Funfack, as Mr Funfack recalls; Mr Funfack
15tells us in that letter what the figures were that he knew
16from the City Commandant and from the Civil Defence Chief,
18 MR RAMPTON:     Where does Dr Funfack say that he gave Mr Kleiner
19the figures -- because that is what this letter says.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     We have three Funfack letters to rely on. Which is the
21Funfack letter that refers to the International Red
22Cross? If you know that, that would be of use.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Funfack's letter to the Red Cross or
24referring to the Red Cross?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Referring to the visit from the Red Cross.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is probably this one on 19th January.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know; it is in German.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, it is in German.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but it has a page number, 41.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, sorry, my Lord, yes. It starts on 41 and
 7finishes at ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is hopeless. I mean, not only are these
 9almost illegible, but they are in German and why should
10one have to plough through them?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I have read it actually during the lunch hour and
12there is the reference to the International Red Cross
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know, but I am complaining on my own
15behalf, you see, rather than yours.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I complain on my behalf as well.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, why does somebody not do something
18about it?
19 MR RAMPTON:     There are two reasons for that, (a) because I do
20not believe it is necessary because there is not any
21connection in Funfack's letter between the Red Cross and
22what Mehnert's version of the figures was, according to
23Funfack. Once again, Mr Irving has made a bridge where
24none exists. You have made a bridge a between Funfach and
25the Red Cross.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, he is having difficulty (as I am) in

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 1even reading this document, let alone seeing what it
 2actually means.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     The other reason, my Lord -- I will be quite
 4honest about it -- unless it is strictly necessary, we do
 5not translate things if they are already in an expert's
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But you see one example of where your expert has left out
 8a very relevant fact, namely that in the very next
 9sentence ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is what?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     --- my source was telling me about 180,000 dead as
12reported by the City Commandant on February 22nd and
13170,000 dead as reported by Iring Fetscher, the Chief of
14the Civil Defence Organisation, and because that goes very
15closely to the 202,000 contained in the Grosse report,
16your expert left it out.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very good point, Mr Irving. Take it up with Professor
18Evans. My Lord, on page 533 of Evans you will find the
19relevant passage from Funfack's letter translated.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know it is there, but what we are looking
21for is to see whether there is anything about the Red
22Cross in this letter.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, we have it, my Lord. It is on page 42, and I am sorry
24to disappoint Mr Rampton.
25 MR RAMPTON:     No, it does not disappoint me. You are wrong,
26Mr Irving.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The City Commandant ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are you looking at? Come on, let us
 3get ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     "The City Commandant, General Mehnert, spoke on or about
 522nd February 1945 of 140,000 dead, Professor Fetscher of
 6the Civil Defence Organisation of 180,000" ----
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but that has got nothing to do with ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     --- "but I have never seen written records of that.
 9I attach great importance to the fact, to the facts in
10order to pay justice to the truth. Best of all, the
11delegate of the International Red Cross should know the
12facts who visited Dresden on about 22nd to 26th February
13under the leadership of a Swiss gentleman and to whom all
14the figures were placed at the disposal of."
15 MR RAMPTON:     So you infer from that, do you?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Remember, we are writing a book on a
17very ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is fine.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     --- very little known document in history. We have a 50
20year rule on the records of the British in force at that
21time. Dresden is behind the Iron Curtain. I am doing my
22little best. I think I have got very close to it with
23this one document where I am dealing with the man who was
24the Deputy Chief Medical Officer and who gives me figures
25given to him by his best friend, the City Commandant of
26the Chief of the Civil Defence, and he says, "We passed

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 1them on to the International Red Cross delegate". I then
 2contacted the International Red Cross who told me the name
 3of the gentleman. The American Government had the report
 4of this delegate.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you have converted that letter and what you were told
 6by the Americans into this proposition, if I may call it
 7that ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     At set out in that paragraph of the book, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- Mr Irving, that the Red Cross were told or Mr Kleiner,
10the Swiss leader of the Red Cross delegation, was told by
11General Mehnert that the current death toll was 140,000?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, because that is the figures that Funfack is referring
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we must have a translation of the
15whole of that page. I mean, that is a very good
16illustration of why it is unsatisfactory to work off
17illegible German text.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I will ask for it to be done. Every time it is
19done it costs money because it is better if it is done by
20an independent translator. I am resistant to doing it
21unless it is absolutely necessary. If your Lordship
22thinks it is necessary in this case, we will have that
23Funfack letter translated.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I can see Mr Irving's point. I mean,
25you may say he is adding two and two together and making

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