Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 186

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    But the Red Cross provide no confirmation one way or the
 1other of the figures which were being floated around at
 2this time?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How is it then, if you turn the page to page 8, that in
 5the 1966 Corgi edition of your book -- it is in the middle
 6of page 8 ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- I have asked Miss Rogers to try to find the page in
 9tab 1 of the file?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     What tab are we now on? I am now lost.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry. I am at page 8 of the table at the moment.
12I am just searching for the reference in the Corgi
13edition. Thank you very much. My Lord, it is page 9 of
14tab 1.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say tab 1, do you mean tab 3?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I am sorry. I will find it in my own copy.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps you can help me -- what are we actually looking at
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we were looking for the Red Cross--
20here we are, yes. In the middle.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I have found it.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     In the middle of what?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, tab L1, tab 3, page 9.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Page 9, and this is page 225 of your 1966 Corgi
25edition, and in the middle of the paragraph which
26begins "shortly after", you write this: "On 22nd February

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 11945, nine days after the attacks during the tour of
 2allied prisoner-of-war camps in the Dresden area,
 3Mr Walter Kleiner, the Swiss leader of an International
 4Red Cross delegation, was in the presence of witnesses
 5informed by the Dresden City Commandant, General Karl
 6Mehnert, that the current death roll was 140,000." Where
 7can that come from, Mr Irving? It did not come from
 8Mr Kleiner, did it?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No, Mr Kleiner was dead at the time.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And it did not come from the Red Cross either, did it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Not at that time, but, I mean, without going back to my
12files and looking for this, I certainly would not have
13invented that passage. There are two possible sources.
14Either the Red Cross published a report which the person
15who made the response to me was not familiar with and
16I relied on that. That is one possibility. Or possibly
17one of the prisoners in the prison camp who kept diaries
18(and I had some of their diaries) was a witness of it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am sure you will produce them if you still have
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Right.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you cannot tell ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     OK, no, I can see what this is.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, tell us then.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This is derived entirely from the Funfack letter, quite

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did Funfack say anything about what Mehnert had told
 2Kleiner? Funfack reported to you what Mehnert, his chum,
 3had said to him, did he not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Let us go back and see the letter then.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or have I misunderstood that?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just go a little slower -- where is
 7the Red Cross letter?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. The first one did not reproduce, but
 9the second one we do have, and I will give your Lordship.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I could not find -- I was scrolling back and
11I cannot find the reference.
12 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 43 of tab 1. That one did reproduce.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 2?
14 MR RAMPTON:     2. Tab 1 is Hungary. I am so sorry. Tab 2. It
15is dated 17th February 1965 and the first paragraph says:
16"There were no POW camps in Dresden itself.
17Consequently, Mr Kleiner's reports did not even allude to
18the air raids on the town. Moreover, the ... (reading to
19the words) ... is only to hand its delegates reports to
20the detaining power of the prisoners power of origin",
21whatever that means.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, so it did not come from there.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It did not come from them.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So the question is where it did come from.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Well, Mr Irving says Funfack. If one looks back
26at page 42 ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I suggest Funfack. Can I interrupt my own train of
 2thought at that point and say the two following things?
 3We have in this file approximately 100 pages of paper, do
 4we not, which is a selection of, I suppose I had four
 5microfilms of paper, 8,000 pages of paper were before you
 6when you did your discovery, inspection of my discovery.
 7So you selected 100 pages from 8,000 pages of paper,
 8right? There is a clue to what the source is if you go
 9back to page 42A under tab 2. If you read the second
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have not got that.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the letter which I wrote to the International Red
13Cross on January 27th, 1965: "On about 22nd February, a
14representative of the International Red Cross visited
15Dresden to ascertain, among other things, the fate of the
16prisoners-of-war in the City. The American Government
17kindly quoted to me details from the report your officer
18wrote." Now, that report, of course, is not in the
19discovery as is before the court.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on en.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Has your Lordship the passage? "I have just today learned
22from a leading Medical Officer in Dresden at the time that
23during visit of your officer, which he recalls as having
24been from 22nd to 26th February, all the casualty figures
25for Dresden were made available to your Officer, the Red
26Cross Officer".

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that a reference to Dr Funfack?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is to Dr Funfack, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where is the communication from Dr Funfack which he says
 4that he got the figures from the Red Cross or the Red
 5Cross gave figures to Kleiner -- I am sorry.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The figures -- Funfack told me, is this correct?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Funfack told you that Mehnert had told him. That is stage
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That Mehnert and Fetscher had told him these two figures?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Right, so those would be the figures that would have been
12given on that date to the International Red Cross visitor,
13Mr Kleiner.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But I want to know who told you that during the visit of
15Kleiner all the casualty figures for Dresden were made
16available to Kleiner.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     The American Government report.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. "I have today from a leading Medical Officer in
19Dresden at the time that during a visit of your Officer
20all the casualty figures for Dresden were made available
21to your Officer".
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That must be information from Funfack?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, but I am referring to this letter dated
24January 27th which states originally, "The American
25Government has kindly quoted me details from the report
26your Officer wrote and you have not produced that".

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