Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 186

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    Yes. He goes on to say that the International Red Cross
 1the person concerned, and so on.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, have no fear. I am coming to the Red Cross,
 3Mr Irving. It is a little bit further down the line the
 4next month. I still am puzzled for an answer to my
 5original question. What basis did you have for continuing
 6to assert that Dr Funfack had been Deputy Chief Medical
 7Officer of Dresden and would have known the figures?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Firstly, I had been informed he was the Deputy Chief
 9Medical officer of Dresden. Secondly, this letter of
10denial is couched in precisely the kind of letters that
11you got from these Communist countries where people were
12terrified because they knew the problems that were going
13to open up for them. He had been visited by, as he says,
14officers of the Ideological Department of the Socialist
15Unity Party who had come and asked him penetrating
16questions about how his name had got into the Western
17press and ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not quite understand what he had to be
19ashamed of.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Nor do I.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If he had been in the SS or something like
22that, yes, but he was Deputy Chief Medical Officer. Is
23that something that ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it is difficult for us to appreciate living in a
25free democracy the kind of terror that people lived in,
26first of all, in Nazi Germany and then in the Communist

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 1East Germany. There were informants everywhere. People
 2were being arrested at the drop of a hat, and the
 3suspicion that somebody had been a senior officer in the
 4regime or hierarchy of a Nazi German City, wearing
 5whatever uniform and had not yet been punished for it,
 6would certainly have persuaded me also to write this kind
 7of letter and make repeated references in the letters to
 8"my proper beliefs" and "my anti-Nazi friends", and all
 9the rest of it, particularly as he then went on to give me
10very useful information which is the reason for writing
11the letter, that his friend, the City Kommandant of
12Dresden, General Mehnert, had told him the following
13figures, and that was what he obviously wanted to tell me
14in this very guarded manner.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I quite appreciate, Mr Irving, you may have had,
16perhaps, quite sensibly inspired doubts about Dr Funfack's
17denial of knowledge. Did you ever make that clear to any
18of your correspondents or your readers?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That he had denied it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You just suppressed the fact that he denied it and
23continued to refer to him in categorical terms as the
24Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden at the time?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed. In a letter immediately following, I referred to
26him as being a Senior Medical Officer in Dresden, which he

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 1clearly was, he was head of the urological department of
 2one of the City's biggest hospitals, which is precisely
 3the position that the Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the
 4City would also have occupied, in my view.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It follows, does it not, that ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention -- I am sorry to interrupt you
 7-- page 42, at the foot of that first letter, it is very
 8difficult to read, but I have read it during the lunch
 9hour: "I learned of the naming of my name in the press by
10a Mr [somebody] of the Ideological Commission of the
11Socialist Unity Party of the City administration in
12Dresden; and that is his way of telling me, "This is what
13all the above is about. I have been hauled over the coals
14by the local Communists because of this". [German -
15document not provided] It is an appalling copy, but that
16is what the words say, and that is what he is saying in
17this postscript.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The irony is, of course, that he was right?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I mean, what he said, "It has nothing to do with me", he
21was right; it was not anything to do with him?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, except that he admits that he did have the copy of
23the document in a later letter. He said, "I have a copy
24of the document. I have the original here. You are
25welcome to come and see it, and he also tells me quite
26gratuitously that he knew from the City Kommandant, who

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 1was a close friend of his, which is exactly what you would
 2expect of somebody who is Chief Medical Officer, that the
 3figure was 170,000 or 180,000, and that the Professor
 4Fetscher, who was the head of the Civil Defence, also
 5stated such figures as early as 22nd February. So that is
 6very much in the same order of magnitude as what the
 7document said.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Did you write to the Red Cross at the beginning of
 9the next month, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     In view of the fact that Funfack said that there had been
11a Swiss Red Cross visit to Dresden, yes, I did.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, it was at the end of January?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     A very few days later, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think on 4th February you got a reply, did you not? My
15Lord, this is the bottom of page 5 of the table.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am afraid there is no copy of this. The reason for that
18is a simple one, Mr Irving. Your copies of these letters
19-- it is not a criticism -- are on microfilm, are they
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. All these negative ones, presumably, come off my
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know where they came from. When my researchers,
24our researchers, looked at them, they were able to see
25what they said. However, it was not possible to produce
26satisfactory photocopies of the copies made from the

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 1microfilm. Do you understand?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does that sound technically likely to be right?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It sounds highly likely, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn to page 534 of Evans, we see what the Red
 6Cross said in their letter to you of 4th February 1965.
 7"It is correct to say" -- this is in paragraph 3, my Lord
 8-- "that on of our delegates, Mr Walter Kleiner, was in
 9the Dresden area during the period you mention, for the
10purpose of carrying out his duties of visiting camps. We
11have in fact in our possession the reports he made at the
12time on prisoner-of-war camps. We have, however, no
13information concerning the victims of the Dresden air
15     Then so that we can telescope it, I think on
1617th of the same month they wrote to you and said: "There
17were no prisoner-of-war camps in Dresden itself.
18Consequently, Mr Kleiner's reports did not even allude to
19the air raids on the town."
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was a dead end, was it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, except that they gave me the name, the address of
23Mr Kleiner, and I then wrote a letter to Mr Kleiner which
24was also in this file which came back that he no longer
25lived there.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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