Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition
Pages 111 - 115 of 186
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] The German edition of what?
2 A. [Mr Irving] "The Destruction of Dresden".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Your book?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] In which you name Dr Funfack as a source for these
6figures, is that right?
7 A. [Mr Irving] If you say so, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] "'Exactly like everyone else'", goes on Dr Funfack,
9"'affected, I have only ever heard the numbers third-hand
10from city commandants with whom I was friends, from the
11civilian air raid protection, etc. But the numbers always
12differed greatly, I myself was only once present at a
13cremation on the Altmarkt, but otherwise completely
14uninvolved. Likewise, I was never Dresden's Chief Medical
15Officer or even Deputy Chief Medical Officer, rather I was
16always working, or worked, I always worked as a specialist
17urologist in a hospital. How one comes to such
18suppositions is incomprehensible to me. I did not have
19the slightest to do with rendering any such services. The
20photos of the cremations on the Altmarkt as well as the
21"Order of the Day 47" were also given to me by
22acquaintances. Therefore, I can give no firm
23[verbindliche] Information about the figure of the dead
24but only repeat what was reported to me'."
25 Mr Irving, from that date you knew, did you not,
26that Dr Funfack was not your man?
1 A. [Mr Irving] Can I comment first on the person of Dr Funfack?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, answer the question first and then go
3back to that.
4 A. [Mr Irving] Well, the answer is, no, I did not accept that. My Lord,
5I gave you a little glossy brochure, a brown brochure, and
6if we were to open up the middle picture, it opens -- the
7middle, that is the picture section of my book, "The
8Destruction of Dresden", and you will see a rather
9horrible scene of the burning -- of the public cremation
10of the air raid victims; and Dr Funfack is one of the
11uniformed characters in the background of that picture.
12He had been identified to me on that and other photographs
13standing on top of one of the heaps of 1,000 bodies
14waiting to cremated.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he says he attended one cremation at
17 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, that is correct. He was wearing Nazi uniform, a Nazi
18Party uniform. He is living in East Germany. They are
19all wearing uniform in that picture. He is living in East
20Germany a quiet life as a retired doctor in 1965, and this
21letter and the subsequent letter which he wrote me, which
22I am not sure if Mr Rampton is relying upon ----
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
24 A. [Mr Irving] --- makes it quite plain his agony at having been
25mentioned in the West German press. In the subsequent
26letter which I will draw your attention to ----
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] I will tell you its date. It is 19th March, I think,
3 A. [Mr Irving] 19th March, which is page 51, is it? Yes, page 51 of the
4bundle. He refers to his friendship with the City
5Commandant, General Mehnert, "who was a close friend of
6mine" and he anxiously then goes on to say, "He was, God
7knows, no Hitler fan, and for this reason he was
8particularly sympathetic in my -- sympathetically in my
9memory", and he continues either in this letter or in the
10next letter which he wrote, which I will now find, very
11significantly to say that the information that he had been
12mentioned in the West German press was brought to him by
13the officers of the Ideological Department of the
14Socialist Unity Party in East Germany who gave him a very
16 Now, I think it does not take very much
17perception or imagination to perceive the reasons why he
18now denies that he was a senior medical officer in
19Dresden. I will put it no more strongly than that.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is it, is it, Mr Irving?
21 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] So you had no positive basis for continuing to assert that
23Dr Funfack, not only was Deputy Chief Medical Officer of
24Dresden at the time, but would know the figures?
25 A. [Mr Irving] I had had a lot of correspondence with people living
26behind the Iron Curtain, and I am very familiar with this
1kind of letter. All three letters that he wrote to me are
2riddled with the kind of sentences that one put in letters
3that one knows are going to be read by the Gestapo or by
4the Communist letter censorship authorities, repeating
5that his close friends were dedicated anti-Nazis, and so
6on. The information that I had that he was Deputy Chief
7Medical Officer of Dresden came from a reasonable and
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which was?
10 A. [Mr Irving] I do not know. But, obviously, I would not have stated it
11off the top of my head. But I would also draw your
12attention to the passage which Professor Evans has left
13out immediately following the part which he quotes, and
14I will translate it for you, after the words, "I can only
15repeat what was reported to me", and he then says what was
16reported to him which, for some reason, your expert has
17left out: "The City Commandant" ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, you are going just a little bit fast.
19I am trying to keep up with the highlighting.
20 A. [Mr Irving] I am continuing the quotation from January 19th 1965, my
21Lord. The letter of January 16th -- January 19th 1965,
22pages 41 and 42.
23 MR RAMPTON: It is on page 42, my Lord, I think.
24 A. [Mr Irving] On page 42.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] The sentence begins half way along the line at the first
26quarter of the page ----
1 A. [Mr Irving] [German - document not provided] I am relying on that
2sentence which says: "The City Commandant, General
3Mehnert", who was a friend of Funfack, as he stated
4earlier in the letter, "spoke to me on about February 22nd
51945 of 140,000 dead, and Professor Fetscher" --
6F-E-T-S-C-H-E-R -- "of the Civil Defence Organization
7spoke of 180,000 dead". And I should emphasise the fact
8that Professor Fetscher, the well-known Communist, a
9doctor, the father of very well-known West German
10politician now, Iring Fetscher -- I-R-I-N-G -- who was
11shot by the SS at the end of war, so it can be no
12suggestion that he was a Nazi propagandist, and that
13passage has been left out of the passage quoted by
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is there. It is on page 533 of Evans. It is a case
16for humble pie, perhaps.
17 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I take that back but, of course, he has not quoted
18it in the apposite part, the appropriate part.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just let me see why he divides it up.
20 A. [Mr Irving] Well, I am sure he had his reasons, my Lord.
21 MR RAMPTON: It is quite an interesting passage, is it not?
22Have you got 533?
23 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. He goes on to say that the International Red Cross
24sent people to investigate Dresden and, as will you notice
25on the rest of the bundle, I then went to very great
26lengths contacting the International Red Cross, locating
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