Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 186

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    Precisely, my Lord, and I was carrying out the proper
 1specific authenticity of its contents.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     But the answer to my original question is nothing
 3had happened to bring any greater certainty about the
 4reliability of the figures, had it?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No. The figure was as dubious as ever, but I had an
 6improved perception of the authenticity of the document
 7itself, and we now know that everything else about the
 8document was accurate, the contents, because it was
 9based ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did it not cross your mind that it was a bit
11suspicious that the figure of 200,040 in the Tagesbefehl
12was identical with the leaked phoney figure, leaked
13propaganda phoney figure?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You mean plus or minus a 0?
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No. I do not know mean that. I may have misunderstood
16the figures?
17 MR RAMPTON:     No, your Lordship does not misunderstand. If you
18go back to the Kimber book, there was a propaganda
19document which mentions precisely the same figures.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is the same document. This is the Max
21Seydewitz obviously also had a copy of the document.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it might be said that an historian ought
23or his ears ought to prick up when he sees, well, it is
24the very same figure which Goebbels was putting into
25circulation for propaganda purposes?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think your Lordship has understood me, with

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 1respect. The Max Seydewitz had the same document as
 2I obtained. The Mayor of Dresden had the same document.
 3He printed it in his own history of the raids. That is
 4where I first found it in 1962 and I used it. Two years
 5later somebody gives me the document. It is the same
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     But it is now not coming from a communist party official.
 9It is now coming from somebody who during the war was the
10Chief Medical Officer of Dresden, and for better or worse
11he himself considered it to be accurate. So obviously
12I have to take that into account. It is also not greater
13than the largest figure which had previously been said for
14the Dresden air raids. It only becomes suspect two years
15later with emergence from the archives then finally of the
16Police Chief's report which gives very similar figures but
17of one magnitude smaller.
18 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am going to go to 1965 in a moment, but
19perhaps I could preface that with this. My Lord, this is
20page 40 of tab 2. You had explained to the Provost of
21Coventry that one of the reasons why you had no doubt as
22to the authenticity of the document, I am not talking
23about the figures ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the bit that is underlined. "I am myself in no
26doubt as to the authenticity of the document, in view of

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 1having obtained it indirectly from the Dresden Deputy
 2Chief Medical Officer responsible for disposing of the
 3victims who still lives in Dresden." That gentleman was a
 4Dr Funfack, was he not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was never Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden, was
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     If I wrote here that he was then certainly that is what
 9I was informed at the time.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He never had anything whatever to do with estimating the
11numbers of the dead, did he?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if I wrote here any differently, certainly I did not
13know any differently.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You knew, however, on 19th January 1965?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I knew what?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That he was neither Deputy Chief Medical Officer nor had
17any responsibility for estimating the numbers of dead?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You are referring to the letter that he wrote me
19subsequently on the following page?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 19th January 1965.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have pinned your hopes on Dr Funfack, have you not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Pinned my hopes on him for what?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was one of the routes to authentication, is that right,
25yes, authentication of this document in your mind, was he
26not, this Deputy Chief Medical Officer?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Without you having read the document since he wrote it 35
 2years ago, I can tell you straightaway what the problem
 3with this is.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I suspect that is not quite so simple as it
 5sounds. Shall we do that at 2 o'clock?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
 7 (Luncheon Adjournment)
 8(2.00 p.m.)
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, we are in January 1965. My Lord, this
10is page 5 of the table and it is page 520 of Professor
11Evans' report. The person that you believe to be the
12Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden at the relevant
13time, 1945, and whom you thought was likely to have
14corroborative information about the number of deaths and
15casualties, was a Dr Funfack, was it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did he write to you on 19th January 1965?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He did, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will find the original German of that letter at page
2041 at tab 2 of this file.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A translation of, at any rate, part of that letter is set
23out on page 520 of Professor Evans' report. May I read it
24in English? If you have a quarrel with the English,
25please tell me or would you like to read the German
26original first to yourself?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This is paragraph 3, is it, of ----
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is actually paragraph 4 at the top of page 520.
 3Professor Evans says: "On 19th January 1965 Irving
 4received a letter from Funfack".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And, as I say, no good asking me ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just puzzled by where it says, "... after six weeks
 8of frantic marketing". I do not quite understand the
10 MR RAMPTON:     Never mind that. You can ask him about that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is gratuitous.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Let us try to keep to the dry facts, shall we,
13Mr Irving?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like you just to glance at the German first. It
16is no good asking me to do it.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I have read it during the lunch break.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did, good. Now I would like to read the English
19translation, if may. Funfack is said by Professor Evans
20to have told you this: "'Why should I now, after 20
21years, be put on the spotlight with the mention of my name
22in the West German papers and be named as a witness to the
23number of dead is a complete mystery to me'". How did his
24name get in the West German papers, Mr Irving?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Presumably, the German edition of the book had been
26published by Bertlesman.

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