Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition
Pages 96 - 100 of 154
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1 A. [Mr Irving] I believe you are right, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] And Goebbels said so, and it was so reported in, I think,
3the proceedings of the -- maybe I am wrong about that, but
4I think you have stated it as a fact in your book?
5 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] No doubt deriving it from Goebbels diary entry?
7 A. [Mr Irving] I just would like to enter the caveat at this point of
8course that I first wrote this 15 years ago, and the last
9time I drafted this manuscript was eight years ago. From
10then until now I have not really had any reason to read it
11again, but I think you are right.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] On page 276 you write: "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in
13the diary, 'has directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, where are you reading? I know
16which book but can you tell me where on the page?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, my Lord, 276, middle of the page, just before
18the indented quote?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. Thank you.
20 MR RAMPTON: In fact, an order from Heydrich went out at 1.20
21in the morning?
22 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] As well as this one, did it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, that is quite plain.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] You are saying that.
26 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Heydrich later report to the Goring, I think on the 11th,
2that that had in fact been achieved, did he not?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. This Fuhrer order refers specifically of course to
4the arrest of the Jews.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] And particularly the well-to do Jews? Is that right?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Not in my book, it does not.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, no. Here on the page.
8 A. [Mr Irving] On the document, do you mean?
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes (German).
10 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] In paragraph 1 it says that there will be taking place, or
12there are taking place, you tell me which it is, in the
14 A. [Mr Irving] There are to take place in the near future in all Germany
15operations against the Jews.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Against the Jews especially against their synagogues?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then it says [German- document not provided], which means?
19 A. [Mr Irving] They are not to be interrupted.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is in exact consonance with what Goebbels reported
21Hitler as having said to him just before the dinner on the
22evening, is it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you not think that this telegram ----
25 A. [Mr Irving] It does not add much to our knowledge.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] It does not?
1 A. [Mr Irving] No, but I referenced it in a footnote as being a telegram
2with an igniting function, if my memory is correct.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. Then the next one I would like you to look at is the
4one on the first page, in this bundle?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am just a little puzzled by
6great stacks of documents in German being handed up. Is
7there anything to be gained by having a translation of
8them? What am I meant to do with all this?
9 MR RAMPTON: Well, if the witness has translated them in the
10witness box and I have not contested his translation, then
11one can take it -- his German is very good -- that what
12he said is accurate.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was really thinking of my own position,
14that it is not entirely satisfactory having to correlate
15this document that is referred to on day 12 with such and
16such a page of the transcript.
17 MR RAMPTON: I know.
18 A. [Mr Irving] Can I also point out, of course, that this was not the
19only order issued? Goebbels had previously issued an
20order during the day. I am not if you caught that,
21Mr Rampton. This was not the only order issued, of
22course. Goebbels had previously issued an order earlier
23that day to which he refers on the following day when he
24rescinds his order.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] But Goebbels does not issue orders to Muller, does he?
26 A. [Mr Irving] This is part of the problem that night. We find Goebbels
1issuing orders to police officials and to gauleitung
2officials over which he has no direct control whatsoever.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where are these Goebbels orders?
4 A. [Mr Irving] If you look at the page 279 of my Goebbels book and you
5look at the caption to that, on November 10th Goebbels
6issued an urgent circular telegram all gau propaganda
7chiefs cancelling the Aktionen against the Jews ordered
8the day before.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] First of all, what time of day does this message go?
10 A. [Mr Irving] That one went out at some time on November 10th, which is
11the day after it all happened.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] It has all happened by then, has it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Second, you notice that this message from Goebbels which
15comes the following day is sent to the propaganda chiefs.
16It is not sent to the SA or to the Gestapo at all, is it?
17 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am completely lost. I do not
19know what the point is at all. We have just looked at a
20document, I now cannot remember where it was, tab 2.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there a point made on that document?
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes. If your Lordship would be a little patient
24with me, the point I shall be making at the end it so that
25it is all clear is this. Orders were given throughout the
26night, apparently on the express authority of Hitler,
1first of all that certain kinds of property were not to be
2damaged or burnt, but by no means extending to all Jewish
3property, and, second, that it was repeatedly said, again
4on the authority of Hitler, that the police were to
5hold back, they were not to interfere.
6 A. [Mr Irving] But you keep on interpolating the words "on the authority
7of Hitler" which is the very moot point of course.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Because some of them actually say so. I am explaining
9something to the judge, Mr Irving.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Let Mr Rampton explain because I am not
11following the criticism of you at the moment.
12 MR RAMPTON: The point of it is, if you unvarnish by
13Mr Irving's interpretation, if I can call it that, in
14these pages, one looks at the original documents as a
15piece of original chronology, if I can call it that. What
16one sees is that it is inconceivable, when you look at who
17they came from, when they came from, that this did not
18originate with Hitler and was approved by him as
19Dr Goebbels said it had been.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. That is very helpful to know that,
21but can I tell you why I am a little puzzled? Before the
22adjournment I think we had reached a point where Hitler
23had gone home or wherever he went before the dinner, which
24was at about 9 o'clock in the evening. We have now got to
25about midnight. Did nothing happen in between times?
26I think that is what Mr Irving is suggesting, that there
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