Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 154

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Elsewhere, certainly not in Munich yet and not all over
 2Germany, not a huge forest firing spreading with
 3uncontrollable speed across the country.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I just wanted to be clear, thank you.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Can I just then -- I want to do two things. One
 6will need his Lordship's permission, but the first does
 7not. Could I ask you to turn to page 276 of Goebbels?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And look at the last paragraph. It is precisely because
10of what you have just said that I want you to look at
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just draw attention to the first sentence of the
13full paragraph: "The pogrom was soon out of control" on
14that page.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not trying to trick you. I just want to know what
16you mean.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that together you and I will find out what
18happened that evening.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think I know, Mr Irving. I do not need your help, I do
20not think. "What of Himmler and Hitler? Both were
21totally unaware of what Goebbels had done until the
22synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons hotel was set on
23fire around 1 a. m."
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. What did you mean by saying that Hitler was
26totally unaware of what Goebbels had done until the

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 1synagogue next door to the hotel went up?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Goebbels, if my memory of events is correct, that evening
 3had sent out an igniting telegram, which I would describe
 4as an igniting telegram, in which he had called for
 5widespread acts of arson and violence against the Jewish
 6community and their property.
 7     Hitler was also not present when Goebbels made
 8this speech to the old fighters, to the old comrades.
 9Those are the two elements on which I base that sentence.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     When he made literally the fiery speech, the inflammatory
13 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I, therefore, have a suggestion to make,
14that your Lordship might consider rising now because
15I would wish for the afternoon your Lordship and
16Mr Irving, if he needs to do so to remind himself, to read
17the whole of pages 273 to 277 towards the halfway break in
18the page, until we get to the aftermath which is 10th and
1911th because it will ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not quite sure why. I mean, I have read
21it before. What is to be gained by reading it again
22without knowing what questions you are going to ask?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Well, because it puts my questions in context. I
24am quite happy to ask questions, but your Lordship or
25Mr Irving may find it difficult it follow.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure Mr Irving will not, but I might,

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 1I suppose.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     But it is eight years since I wrote this passage and
 3I have moved on to other things since then, of course.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you would like the opportunity to re-read
 5it, would you?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     If Mr Rampton thinks it would be useful.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I do because otherwise I am going to dot
 8around from one page to the next. One will not have the
 9context unless we read out all the pages in court, and
10that is time consuming and also somewhat tiresome.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I can read it during the lunch hour.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. So now is the moment do that, is it?
13 MR RAMPTON:     We have only lost eight minutes if we do it that
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, OK. We will say 2 o'clock.
16 (Luncheon adjournment)
17(2.00 p.m.)
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Now, Mr Irving, have you had a chance to reread
20those pages of your book?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I have, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. What I would like to do, if I may, is to draw your
23attention to the documents in the file which you have. As
24far as possible I will try to do it in chronological
25order. Then what I want to do is to see and, if the
26answer is you have, whether you have treated them in this

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 1passage and, if you have, how you have treated them and,
 2if you have not, why not. First of all, can you please
 3turn to page 2 of the first tab in this bundle?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at this, I do not know what the nature of this
 6publication is. I think it is probably a Nuremberg
 7document. Do you?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Here is a telegram from Muller, who is head of the
10Gestapo. It is the right hand column, my Lord. 377 is
11the internal number.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is sent at 5 to 12 on the night of 19th
14November 1938, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is addressed to -- what are Stapostellen?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Local Gestapo officers.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Stapolizeistellen?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     They are the office immediately above them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the date of it? I cannot find it.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     9th November 19 --
22 MR RAMPTON:     It is Berlin No. 234, 404, 9.11, 23.55 which is
23the time. Is that right?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see, but no year.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No year, no. But you have seen this document

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     The original is in the Hoover library in Stamford
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is the answer to my question yes?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When did you first see this document?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably about 20 years ago, 25 years ago.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am saying I have seen the original of the original
10document, not of this Nuremberg one, which I did not use.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not make an appearance in your Goebbels book, does
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Do I not refer to igniting telegrams?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In a footnote but it is not in the text, is it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It makes the appearance in the footnote, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you just glance at it again, you are no doubt familiar
17with it, and tell us what it says?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is instructing local police officers that in a short
19time there is going to be an outbreak of operations
20against the Jews, in particular against their synagogues
21all over Germany, and that there are to be certain
22precautionary measures to make sure that other buildings
23are not -- and also the arrest of 20 or 30,000 Jews is to
24be prepared.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That arrest of 20 or 30,000 Jews was explicitly on the
26order of Hitler, was it not?

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