Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 154

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    Hitler's response is nothing to do with, "Oh,
 1against the Jews and the destruction of their property, is
 2it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am quite happy to accept that. I do not really see that
 4it makes any difference what the matter was in this
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes, it does because what Hitler says is: "Let the
 7demonstrations continue"?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Draw back the police, pull out the police"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     "Let the police -- let the Jews have the taste of public
11anger", yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right, and that may well be Goebbels' (because he
13often puts those little words in, does he not)
14observation. You know, do you not (and I am sure you do,
15although we do not have find it in your book, I do
16not think), in February of the following year, 13th
17February or so, the Nazi party judicial system (which is
18nothing whatever to do with the official state prosecution
19or court service) held some kind of tribunal or enquiry
20into what had happened on 9th and 10th November 1938?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Into the excesses committed by Nazi party members, yes,
22against the Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. How many Nazi party members were actually
24prosecuted, fined or imprisoned by the State courts?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Prosecuted or fined or imprisoned?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well take them in order, if you like?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very few, I suggest.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if that is your evidence, but I do not know either
 4way -- not without consulting the records.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look in tab 2 of this document?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     They were prosecutions, definitely, for people who had
 7murdered Jews for ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     --- shall we say -- on one occasion a Jew was murdered
10because he was going to give evidence in a libel action,
11I believe, and he was prosecuted for it -- the murderer
12was prosecuted for it, yes. Can I look at ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is not the State justice machinery, is it, this party
14tribunal or whatever it is?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It calls itself "Der Oberste"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the supreme party court.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Der Oberste ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Under Walter Buch.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- Parteirichter?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Walter Buch -- B-U-C-H.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and this is its report to General Field Marshal
23Hermann Goring, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you would like to turn over the page?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     What are we looking at?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am so sorry. Are you not in this file? Tab 2.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 2.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is dated 13th February 1939.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What it says, which is of significance for present
 6purposes, is to be found on the next page, page 2. If you
 7would not mind just translating it? In the middle of the
 8page, it says: "Geheim! Geheim!" which is "Secret",
 9presumably, then it says "Bericht" which is "Report on",
10and then what is it reporting on?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     A report on the episodes and the party court procedures in
12connection with the anti-Semitic demonstrations on
13November 9th 1938.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Now I would like you to read the next paragraph
15and down to the line below "seite 2".
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Read it?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I mean translate it for us, please?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     "On the evening of 9th November 1938, the Reichs
19propaganda director, party member Dr Goebbels, informed
20the party members who had met for a comradely evening in
21the old Town Hall in Munich that there had been
22anti-Jewish demonstrations in the gaus, G-A-U-S, of
23Kurhessen and Magdeburg-Anhalt, A-N-H-A-L-T, and that
24Jewish shops and synagogues had been smashed -- and the
25Jewish shops had been smashed and synagogues had been set
26on fire. The Fuhrer had decided on his briefing that such

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 1demonstrations were not to be prepared by the party, nor
 2were they to be organized by the party. In so far as they
 3occurred spontaneously, they were, however, not to be
 4opposed or stopped".
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Well, now, whereas I suppose you might say that
 6Dr Goebbels might lie to his diary ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- he is not likely to lie to the Alten Rathaus gathering
 9of old party comrades, is he? He is representing to them
10what he and Hitler have been discussing and what Hitler
11has told him before that dinner which Hitler did not
12attend, is he not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do we find that speech by Goebbels at the Alten Rathaus
15referred to anywhere by you in your Goebbels book?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I believe that I had the version given by the British
17Consul in Munich which he reported to the Foreign Office
18and he obtained an account of what Goebbels had said, and
19I have referenced that as the source. Obviously, there is
20no transcript of it.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, if Goebbels was telling the truth to the party
22court ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     He was not actually one of their witnesses.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, no. If this is an accurate report of what Goebbels
25said at the Alten Rathausen on the evening of 9th
26November, probably after Hitler had left, why, then, the

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 1idea that Hitler did not know what was going to happen is
 2absurd, is it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We are talking about scale, I think, more than anything
 4else. It is quite evident from Goebbels diary that Hitler
 5had said, "OK, so the Jews are going to have, they are
 6going to get ruffed up, pull the police back, let it
 7happen, let the Jews have a taste of the public anger this
 8time". But what is evidenced from all the records that
 9I have seen is that, like a lot of fires, it got out of
10hand, and by midnight, so to speak, it was quite plain
11that this was turning into an extremely unseemingly pogrom
12which in an organised, national Socialist State was
13something desired certainly not by Hitler, and in the
14following morning not by Goebbels either, because it
15reflected badly on them all.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to ask you look at one sentence in Goebbels on
17page 276, your book on Goebbels?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just, before you do that, get an
19impression of the scale of the problem at it was known to
20Hitler. This document we are looking at is referring to
21events in Kurhessen and Magdeburg-Anhalt. Where are they?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, they were provinces in central Germany hundreds of
23miles away from Munich, and he is getting reports of a
24synagogue set on fire here and the demonstrations there.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, perhaps a bit more than that, but, at any rate,
26Jewish businesses being trashed and ----

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