Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 154

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it is perfectly correct to translate it as Professor
 2Evans does, "The Jews must for once feel the people's
 3fury". That is more accurate.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, can we see the actual German original perhaps?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The German original is at the bottom of page 240 of Evans.
 6You want to see the actual document?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     No, no, I just want to no. "Die Juden sollen einmal den
 8Volkszorn zu verspuren bekommen" -- "The Jews must have a
 9taste of the people's anger". My translation is better
10than his, I am afraid.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say so.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Verspuren" means track of, or something like
13that, does it, or trace of?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I think "to have taste of something", to have a taste of
15the public anger.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Now, much more important than that ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I hope so.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- well, much more important than that, Mr Irving, is
19this, really it is the foundation, is it not, of your
20whole account of this event, or series of events, which
21later came to be known as Reichskristallnacht? Goebbels,
22it must be, according to you, when he wrote that the
23Fuhrer said, "Let the demonstrations go on and withdraw
24the police"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Goebbels must be lying? Because, on your account, Hitler

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 1did not know anything about it and was shocked and angry
 2when he found out what was happening early on the morning
 3of 10th?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Surely this is a reference to what has been going on
 5during the day before the Kristallnacht.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Big demonstrations against the Jews in Kassel and Dessau?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Synagogues set on fire and businesses demolished?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This was during the day even before the
10Reichskristallnacht began, the outrages began.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The death of the German diplomat vom Rath is reported in
12the afternoon. But now the goose is cooked. I go to the
13party reception in the Old Town Hall. Colossal activity".
14That means at the reception, I take it. "I brief the
15Fuhrer about the matter," what matter?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we see the entire passage, please?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I will have to find it.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     This is very important and we really have to go over it
19line by line.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is terribly important, not from the historical
21point of view. Tab 3, is it? Tab 3, page ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 3 of what L2?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, page 1.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Unfortunately, we do not have the first pages of this
25diary entry. Had I known, I would have brought my
26transcript of the diary with me.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Presumably, this is all in one of the other
 3 MR RAMPTON:     No, we have not got it.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I published the Goebbels 1938 diary in a separate
 5edition before this edition came out. Of course, I am the
 6first person to have transcribed these handwritten
 7diaries, and it is quite plain when you look at these
 8diaries that this particular day is written up one or two
 9days later, so it is very difficult to be certain about
10the sequence of events. You have really to ----
11 MR RAMPTON:     Well, it is pretty clear, is it not, Mr Irving?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you ----
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What time of the day was the rally or whatever it was in
14the old Rathaus, the old Town Hall?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It was a dinner.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A dinner?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     A dinner, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     According to Goebbels, he went with Hitler to the dinner?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Although Hitler did not stay?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But they were obviously talking about the violence which
23had broken out in different parts of Germany against
24Jewish property as they went or when they got there, were
25they not? Look at the text on page ----
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am very clearly looking at the text and I am going to

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 1translate as I go along. Paragraph -- the first, the
 2third full paragraph: "In Kassel", right?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, please.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     "In Kassel and Dessau great demonstrations against the
 5Jews. Synagogues are set on fire and the shops are
 6demolished. In the afternoon the death of the German
 7diplomat vom Rath is reported. Now it is" [something or
 8other], the word is unplain, illegible, "I go to the party
 9reception in the old Town Hall. A lot going on there.
10I tell the Fuhrer about it. I tell -- I report the matter
11to the Fuhrer". It is obviously the fact that vom Rath is
12dead. That is what he has told Hitler about. The news
13has come over the wires, Goebbels is the propaganda
14minister and he has passed on to Hitler the fact.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Read on, Mr Irving, really.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     And he says, "Let the demonstrations carry on. Pull back
17the police", yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     What he has told Hitler about is the death of vom Rath.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, that is a complete, if I may ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     OK, I will take your one, I do not mind. It makes no
22difference either way. I will take your interpretation.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What Goebbels done is to tell Hitler, Hitler surely
24already knows about the death of vom Rath, after all ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have no evidence for that.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, he sent his personal physician over to Paris to try

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 1to save the man's life, does he not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     But you do not have any evidence for the fact that Hitler
 3knew when Goebbels went to him -- well, OK, even accept
 4that, I do not mind. Let us carry on.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the thing realistically, Mr Irving. The news gets
 6on the public radio by 5 o'clock in the evening. Are you
 7telling me that Hitler would not know? Of course, he
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you giving evidence that it was on the radio as
10opposed to coming over the wires?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just trying to push into the bushes an absurd, off
12the cuff answer by you. I am not going to hold you to it.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not off the cuff. I have researched this matter in
14enormous depth. I am the first person to have transcribed
15the Goebbels' diaries on the Kristallnacht.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what does "die angelegenheit"
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The affair, the matter, the business, ras in Latin.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So that is equivocal?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It could be anything. It could refer to either thing.
21But I do not see that it makes any difference either way
22and I am quite happy to accept Mr Rampton's
24 MR RAMPTON:     Hitler's response is nothing to do with, "Oh,
25isn't it awful? Yes, what a shame it is about vom Rath".
26Hitler's response is all to do with the demonstrations

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