Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 154

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    Not "einen vorher Fall erwahnen". He does not say, "I want
 1like to mention an incident".
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but read on.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a bad translation, of course.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You say vorher qualifies erwahnen, not einen Fall?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is an adverb, my Lord, it is not an adjective.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     You can take that up with Professor Evans. It is
 8no good arguing with me about that.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I have quite a few things to take up with Professor Evans
10when he comes.
11 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I do not think I have anything more on
12this little topic.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think that was better than just
14adjourning for 20 minutes. We have actually had the 20
15minutes and the file is here or is not here?
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Can we have five minutes just to sort it out?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes of course. I will adjourn for five
22 (Short Adjournment)
23 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship should have a new red file.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have, L2.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, for this purpose I am going to
26concentrate on your latest account of Reichskrissallnacht

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 1which is that given in your 1996 book on Goebbels. If you
 2tell me that you want also to refer to what you have
 3written on Hitler's War or on any other book, I will come
 4back to is that tomorrow.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you your Lordship like the book itself?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I will probably operate off the
 7transcript, thank very much, then I can mark it.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have a spare copy.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have one already actually of Goebbels.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Can we start on page 273, and I am not going to
11going to read out page 273. What you do there is give an
12account of what had happened in Paris, and earlier, on 7th
13November 1938 which was that it was said that an assassin
14called Grynszpan had shot a Nazi diplomat called vom Rath,
15is that right?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did not die immediately. I think he died some time in
18the afternoon of the 9th. Is that not right?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The news of his death was transmitted to Berlin at about
215 o'clock that evening, or a bit earlier, and then was
22released on the news?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whether directly or indirectly, as a consequence of that,
25a number of disturbances began to take place in different
26places in Germany which were all directed against Jewish

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 1property. Is that a fair account?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the disturbances actually begun before the death
 3was announced.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     After the shooting?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     After the shooting the disturbances begun, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Prompted by the shooting. Can I start right then at the
 7bottom of page 273: "Events that evening, November 9th,
 8are crucial to the history of what followed. As Goebbels
 9and Hitler set out to attend the Nazi reception in the old
10city hall, they learned that the police were intervening
11against anti-Jewish demonstrators in Munich. Hitler
12remarked that the police should not crack down too harshly
13under the circumstances". Your source for that -- have
14you got it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     274. Your source for that, I think, is eyewitness
17testimony, is it not? The footnotes are on page 612 and
18following, I can tell you that.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It was a statement by Juttner.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What follows next, however, is a quotation from the
21Goebbels' Diary written, no doubt, on the 10th?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily. If you remember, the Goebbels' Diary,
23over these days, was written up subsequently, I think, so
24it is dangerous to assume that a diary was written ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not. I have no quarrel with Dr Goebbels' Diary in
26this part of the tale, I have to say.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "'Colossal activity' the Goebbels diary entry reports,
 3then claims: 'I brief the Fuhrer on the affair. He
 4decides: Allow the demonstrations to continue. Hold back
 5the police. The Jews must be given a taste of the public
 6anger for a change'." So when you say in the earlier part
 7that Hitler remarked that the police should not crack down
 8too harshly, that means that they should not crack down
 9too harshly on the anti-Jewish demonstrators, is that
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What word did Goebbels use to represent his report of
13Hitler's decision that the police should be held back?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. Can we see the diary?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it is probably best, neatest, easiest, to see it.
16Sorry. It is easiest for everybody else if we look at it
17on page 240 of the Evans' report, although it is in this
18new bundle.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The sense that I give is clearly that Hitler wanted the
20demonstrations against the Jews to continue.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but my question was what word did Goebbels use which
22you translate as "hold back"?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Zuruckziehen".
24 A. [Mr Irving]     You must remember, it was eight or nine years since
25I actually wrote this. It is eight years since I saw
26Goebbels diaries.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, the answer is "Zuruckziehen", I think, is it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     "Zuruckziehen".
 3 MR RAMPTON:     If Goebbels had meant "hold back", he would have
 4written something like "Zuruckhalten would he not"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Or "Zuruckneimen", yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Zuruckziehen" is more active, it means ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Pull back.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Pull them out"?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Pull back, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And let the demonstrators get on with it"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And he says simply that the Jews for once shall feel the
13anger of the people. That is all he says in the next
14sentence, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     "The Jews must be given a taste of the public anger for a
16change", yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where is the "taste" in the German?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the difference? I have talked before about the
19need to make literate translations or literary
20translations of diaries. The Goebbels diary presents
21particular problems because it is written in the
22vernacular, and it is very difficult to give the exact
23flavour, or in this case the taste, of the vernacular in
24the translation you give. He is writing slang. It would
25be like translating cockney into German. Frequently he is
26writing in a Berlin cockney.

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