Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 154

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    That is not what he said. He said quite clearly, "By this
 1you have admitted you were not a member of the party, and
 2therefore I am going to throw you out anyway". He
 3certainly would not have helped Hitler at a treason trial
 4by suggesting that Hitler had taken deliberate
 5anti-Semitic actions against, or that he endorsed
 6anti-Semitic actions against, this grocery store. If this
 7was outside the courtroom, in other words, your
 8explanation could have been plausible. But inside the
 9courtroom, and Hoffmann giving evidence on behalf of
10Hitler is totally implausible, to put that interpretation
11on it.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not a good reason for doubting the credibility of
13what Hoffmann said, I suppose?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure he wanted, as the judge said, to get Hitler off
15the hook.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you tell your readers that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is quite evident, is it not, when you are relying
18something? How much do you have to spell out everything
19to your readers every time? I am not, as I said once
20before, putting eight pages of sludge into a text in the
21way that a Professor can in an academic treatise. I have
22to write a book that will sell.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you do, if it is a mere side reference in a book
24about Goring, if you have a doubtful source like that, is
25you leave it out entirely. You do not make some elevating
26reference to Hitler's protection of the Jews in passing,

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 1if you are doubt at all about the credibility of the
 2source. You just leave it out.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, this is a most illuminating example. It
 4is a very earlier example of exactly how Hitler acted in
 5the second world war, where he repeatedly interceded
 6against Nazis who had committed excesses against by
 7actions against the Jews. We have already had, and we are
 8going to have a lot more before this case ends,
 9innumerable cases where Hitler has interceded, and this is
10a very early one in 1923.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You cannot have it both ways, Mr Irving. Either Hoffmann
12is reliable and was not skewing his evidence in order to
13help his leader out of a tight corner, in which case you
14should have given the whole account, or else he was an
15unreliable witness and you should have just left it out.
16Is that not right?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You are the one who is trying to have it both ways,
18Mr Rampton. You want to have him as an unreliable witness
19who is trying to help Hitler, but at the same time hacking
20Hitler on the shins by what he says, saying that Hitler
21was angry because the guys who attacked the grocery shop
22had had the effrontery to take off their Nazi badges.
23That would not have helped Hitler at all, would it?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What about what you described as the requisitioning of
25funds by Hitler's armed thugs?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh that was obviously some prank that they carried out.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A prank?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     He sent them out to go and steal the entire contents of a
 3bank to pay people back or something, did he not?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He sent them out?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler sent these people out to go and rob a printing
 6works and steal all the money.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He sent them out to rob the bank?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I put this in the book, I think, no doubt Mr Rampton
 9will tell us.
10 MR RAMPTON:     You said in Goring that Hitler sent armed men into
11the city to requisition funds?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is rather the same way as the great train robbers
13went to requisition funds.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "It took 14 and a half billion Reichsmarks from the Jewish
15bank known as Parvis &Company and gave a Nazi receipt in
16exchange. Meanwhile Hitler acted to maintain order". The
17truth was that these thugs just went and stole 14 and a
18half billion Reichsmarks from the Jewish printers, did
19they not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, which was of course just paper. They went
21and stole all the paper and left a Nazi receipt.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did you not write it like that, requisition,
23Mr Irving? Really! They were not even the government.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know if you have read Noel Coward's poems? This
25is the way the English write. They write with a delicate
26touch. They do not write acres of stodge if they can help

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 1it if they are not professors of sociology or history.
 2They write books that are going to get read. To send a
 3Nazi gang to go and requisition funds from a printing
 4works is like the great train robbers requisitioning
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How is the reader going to gather that from
 7what you have written?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, maybe I have not written it with as much dexterity
 9as normal, but the intention was to put a light touch on
11 MR RAMPTON:     Then finally this, Mr Irving ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Giving a Nazi receipt in exchange surely gives the
13flavour, does it not?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The attack on the Jewish delicatessen and Hitler's
15supposed reaction to it, which you used in support of the
16statement that Hitler acted to maintain order,
17notwithstanding that he sent thugs to steal a large sum of
18money from some Jewish bankers, that raid on the
19delicatessen was not part of the putsch of the 8th and 9th
20November, 1923 at all, was it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. You tell us.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you have read Hoffmann's testimony, you would know that
23it referred to some earlier and quite unconnected
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. Does Professor Evans say this?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes he does.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps you can draw attention to it.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Last bullet point on page 228.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot accept that without knowing what he relies on.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you will see at the top of 229 what he relies on
 5in Hoffmann's testimony.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     He just says "It is quite clear that". Frankly, I do not
 7accept that unless he gives us a source. You remember, I
 8have read the 6,000 pages of testimony and he has just
 9read some printed text.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I think what he is probably referring to, which is
11perfectly obvious if you look at it, and I am grateful to
12Miss Rogers, is on page 227, the very first line of the
13quote from Hoffmann is: "Apart from this, I want to
14mention a previous incident because acts of violence which
15individuals have committed have always been ascribed to
16him. I once went along to Hitler when I was still in the
17force and said to him: this and that have happened
18again. Some elements had attacked..."
19     It was a quite separate occasion, nothing
20whatever to do with Hitler's restoring order during the
21putsch of 1923.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, will you read the German original of that
23first line, please?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Austerdem mochte ich einen Fall vorher erwahnen..."
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Not "einen vorher Fall erwahnen". He does not say, "I want
26to mention a previous incident". He says, "I would first

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