Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 154

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Most of it.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you knew that Hitler had not sent for the lieutenant,
 3did you not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This was written, what, 14 years ago so I do know what
 5I knew.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, all your little fictions, your little tweaks, of
 7the evidence all tend in the same direction, exculpation
 8of Adolf Hitler, do they not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     How does sending for him or not ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a much more severe measure than just saying to the
11chap, "Well, look, I gather you are the bloke that did
12this out of the party", is it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That makes a big difference?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It makes a little difference.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the exculpation is not the sending for. The
16exculpation is throwing him out of the party and that is
17not denied.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And, "Goring goggled, 'Good heavens! Adolf really is not
19anti-Semitic after all'"
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, come...
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I mean, really!
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think I actually wrote that, did I? Now you are
23taking liberties, you are writing things into the text.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we look at the German? My Lord, I was told that the
25Reichskristallnacht bundle will be ready in what was 20
26minutes and, therefore, presumably, is 18 now, so I have

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 1only a couple of questions and perhaps we could then have
 2a short break until it arrives.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, certainly.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Or you can spin it out the way you are doing now.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, Mr Irving. That is quite unnecessary. It is my fault
 6because Mr Rampton wanted an adjournment altogether and I
 7was trying to use the time.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Why should I spin it out, Mr Irving?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, by trying to make some mileage out of the word
10"sent" when, in fact, you say he was on the other side of
11the room and said, "You are the one, come over here".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We were going to look at the German.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Look at the English first on page 227.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He is complaining that I did not identify the source.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He does.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could I ask your Lordship and Mr Irving just to read the
18English in paragraph 2 on page 227?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "That gives a bad impression of the party".
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Could you then read the German at the
21bottom? It goes over to the other side at the bottom of
22228 as well.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I draw attention to the fact, of course, that he
24has used a different source from the source that I have
25used? I have used the original microfilm which is -- I do
26not know whether it was longer than this or not. My

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 1microfilm is 6,000 pages long, and I have got no idea
 2whether they reproduced the entire text of the trial or
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just cannot grapple with that, I am afraid, Mr Irving, I
 5do not know.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is important because if I am being accused of
 7putting things in or adding to the text, it may well be --
 8I am just saying this, it is 14 years since I wrote that
 9passage -- that I was using the original microfilm,
10looking at the original court stenographer's version, and
11he has been using some printed edited text.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The last three lines of German on page -- you must forgive
13me my accent -- 227, almost the last three lines:
14"Zufallig" - does that mean "by chance" - "ist der Fuhrer
15der Gruppe dagewesen"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     By chance the leader of this squad was there, a young Army
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Are you telling me that that is different from the
19text that you read?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he was there. He was no doubt hanging around.
21"There" does not mean to say he was sitting at Hitler's
22desk or wherever. He just had to be on hand.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Zur Rede gestellt hat diesser gesagt" -- "called on to
24speak" is a fair translation?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it is not. "Zur Rede gestellt", challenged.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Challenged?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very good. He said: "I took off the party" ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Emblem.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Insignia".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Hitler said "Damit". What does that mean?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Thereby you have admitted or recognized that you did not
 8consider yourself to be a member of the party at that
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     But you did that.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     With your entire squad you are thrown out of the party
14immediately, and I will take care that you will never
15again be taken up by a nationalist fighting unit.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has it occurred to you, Mr Irving -- again this would not
17be in Adolf Hitler's favour of course, so maybe it has
18not -- that what actually made Hitler cross was not so
19much what they had done but the fact that they took off
20their party insignia before they did it?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is actually what it says. That gives a
22bad impression of the party.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Where does it say that gives a bad impression of the
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the translation.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the translation, four lines down.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     The relevant English is: "I took off the party
 3badge, that is the lieutenant. Hitler said, by doing
 4this you admitted that you do not belong to the party at
 5the moment when you committed that act. You are
 6expelled ... " Has it occurred to you, Mr Irving, that
 7what actually was meant by Hitler was, if you are going to
 8do things like that, do not be a coward and keep your
 9party insignia on when you do?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think this is a very far-fetched
11interpretation. It is an alternative interpretation but
12I think far-fetched and the less plausible of the two.
13I do not think that, if this Hofmeister, if I can continue
14my argument and I think this will destroy your argument
15entirely, if this Hoffmann, rather, imagined he was doing
16Hitler a service when Hitler was on trial for high
17treason, that he was going to do Hitler a service by
18saying that Hitler had said, "By taking off your badge,
19you created a bad impression, you should have done that as
20a Nazi", that would not have helped Hitler at all in that
21trial, would it.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But do you not think the two things really go together?
23Hoffmann might have said that Hitler said, "This is a bad
24thing to do, worse still you took off your party badge"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not what he said. He said quite clearly, "By this
26action you have damaged the party", or, "By this action

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