Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 154

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    Mr Irving, come on. This is not the playground. My
 1that. As with the Slovakians, they can be put in
 2concentration camps".
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the next day the thing hots up, headed by Ribbentrop
 5swiftly followed by Hitler and there is no palliative or
 6mitigating element in that, and you knew it so you
 7transferred the previous day's remark to this day?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Deliberately, right?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     And you have no evidence whatsoever for that adverb, none
11at all.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It speaks for itself, perhaps.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     These things happen when you are writing books of 1,000
14pages. Index cards get mixed up, you get a date wrong by
15one day, sometimes by one month, sometimes even by a year,
16and to say that this is deliberate and perverse, if your
17case depends on that, then I am really sorry for your
18Defendants.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am going to press this, Mr Irving, you see,
20because when we get to the 1991 edition ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Are we not going to deal with the Hungarian version of the
22same meeting, the Hungarian records?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not have the Hungarian version.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, of course, I had that and your experts did not.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you telling me that the Hungarian version has the
26palliative remark of the 16th recorded as having been said

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 1on 17th?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but we are interested in what it does not have which
 3is any German demand for the killing of Jews.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us, if we may, turn to how you dealt with it in ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     You see, this again is something your experts have not
 6used. I have not just used the books on the book shelf.
 7Your experts sit in their book lined caves taking down
 8their handy reference works. I do the work in the
 9archives.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we have, my Lord, it is volume 2, it is D1 (v)?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     542.
12 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is effectively the same, is it not?
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. I mean, the substance of what
15I have just put is exactly the same, but there is one
16crucial passage which has been missed out,?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate this book is the abridged version?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I ask you if you are have in court the unabridged
19version?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I am saying the 1991 version is the abridged version of
21the 1977 version. It was produced originally as a
22paperback.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is interesting, I am going to suggest, Mr Irving, to
24look at what you have left out of the 19 ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     What has been left out? Remember, I am not necessarily
26the person who did the editing.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This book comes out, this 1991 edition, following your
 2conversion to there was no Holocaust, does it not? What
 3we noticed if we look at 542, that is your account of what
 4Hitler said, you still fudged together the 17th and 16th,
 5but your account of what was said on ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it had not been pointed out to me at that time, of
 7course.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your account of what said on 17th stops short at the
 9reference to tuberculosis bacilli. Unlike the 1997
10edition, you have missed out, omitted, the whole of the
11passage relating to the killing of innocent animals to
12prevent them from causing damage, have you not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It did not really add very much. If you are abridging a
14book and you see that you have three sentences which
15repeat the same thing, then you are going to cut out one
16of them. We had shorten to book by one-third.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You missed out the rhetorical question, "Why should one
18spare the beasts who wanted to bring us Bolshevism?"
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but not for any perverse reason; purely because we
20are shortening the book by one-third and everything gets
21shortened.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, having said that, would you agree,
23Mr Irving, that it does portray Hitler in a slightly more
24sympathetic light than if one had had the whole of that
25quote set out in the 1991 edition?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord, I would not agree that because the whole

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 1paragraph has been shortened, and so that actually
 2enhances the effect of the ugly sentence that is left in.
 3If we leave in ugly sentences and shorten the paragraph as
 4a whole without cutting out all the ugly sentences, if we
 5were following Mr Rampton's argument, I would have cut out
 6all the ugly sentences and not just one in three which is
 7what you do when you are shortening a work.
 8     It is very easy to do this kind of exercise, go
 9through a book that has been abridged and point out that
10sentences have been cut out, but that is the only way to
11shorten it for American -- this was an American edition
12which was produced originally in paperback.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I think you were aware of the mix up of dates long
14before the second edition came out because it was pointed
15out to you by Martin Broszat in 1977?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Possibly, but you have seen how little importance
17I attached to the mix up in dates.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not think it appropriate when you are writing a
19history book, if that is what this is, to make it clear
20that, whereas when Horthy referred to his unwillingness to
21kill Jews on 16th, Hitler had said, "There is no need for
22that", by the 17th it is quite apparent from Schmidt's
23notes that the attitude of the Germans, Ribbentrop and
24Hitler, had considerably hardened?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You say this, but I do not agree. Remember, I have not
26given dates. I have not said, "On April 16th Hitler said

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 1this. On April 17th Rippentrop said that". There are not
 2dates there. I summarized both conferences in one
 3paragraph.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you transferred the earlier conversation to the later
 5conversation as though it took place after Hitler had
 6remarked upon the need to kill animals?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not agree. I did not say this was said on 17th or
 8this was said on 16th. I have put everything into one
 9paragraph. I have not said all this was one conference or
10all this was on the first conference. I have assigned
11no ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you agree that what Hitler was actually
13talking about on 17th was actually the extermination of
14the Hungarian Jews?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In what sentence, my Lord?
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, "extermination" meaning killing them?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have to see exactly which sentence you are
18referring to.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am referring to the whole of the quote, including the
20deers and rabbits and "Why preserve or spare these
21beasts?"
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes, he is talking about not killing them, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Not killing them?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, "There is no need for that".
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, I am sorry. I was asking about the 17th.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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