Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 154

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Put down means killing, does it not?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Killed.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a very accurate precis so far of what is in a much
 4longer paragraph by Paul Schmidt, I think.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- "To prevent their doing damage? Why preserve a bestial
 6species", the German is die bestien, which means the
 7beasts, does it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but remember we are writing a literary work which is
 9by David Irving, not by Paul Schmidt.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, actually by Adolf Hitler. "Whose ambition was to
11inflict bolshevism on us all. Horthy apologetically noted
12that he had done all that he decently could against the
13Jews: 'But they can hardly be murdered or otherwise
14eliminated', he protested. Hitler reassured him: 'There
15is no need for that'. But just as in Slovakia, they ought
16to be isolated in remote camps where they could no longer
17infect the healthy body of the public; or they could be
18put to work in the mines, for example. He himself did not
19mind being temporarily excoriated for his Jewish policies,
20if they brought him tranquillity. Horthy left
22     Where in that transcript of the meeting of 17th
23April, Mr Irving, do we find that passage?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Which passage are you talking about?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "There is no need for that".
26 MR RAMPTON:     From"Horthy apologetically noted" down to "Horthy

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 1left unconvinced".
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. I would have to have time to look at these
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take your time, because those words are in
 5quotation marks.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I would not trouble taking too much time,
 7Mr Irving. It was said on the 16th, as the second piece
 8of extract from Schmidt, that you got there will tell
10 A. [Mr Irving]     On which page.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On page 245.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At the bottom of the fourth paragraph we find words, if
14you want to check the paragraph to see that I am right,
15attributed to Horthy: [German- document not provided].
16He is saying, "Well, all right, but I do not think that we
17can murder or otherwise kill them", is he not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is difficult because we have only got three pages of
19this transcript here.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have more or less the whole extract if you are fussed
21about that, Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And, of course, your imputation is that this is the only
23source that I have used, is it not?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Carry on reading, please. You can make your point in
25a moment.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     You asked where I got this quotation from and I was trying

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 1to answer your question.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, which quotation are you talking about?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     "They can hardly be murdered or otherwise eliminated".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you se, that seems to be an accurate
 5representation of what you have just read out.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. What you have done is lifted what was said
 7on 16th and put it on 17th to make Hitler look better,
 8have you not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     How does it make him look better if I get the date wrong
10by one day? How does that make him ----
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You quote precisely what Hitler said on 16th.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is [German - document not provided].
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, OK, you have found it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "There is no need for that"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     You have found it then, good.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is on 16th, Mr Irving.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     As I said about five minutes ago, there was mix up of
19dates when we wrote this first edition by one day.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A mix up, Mr Irving?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you have done is deliberately to transfer something
23gentler that Hitler said on 16th in order to mitigate or
24water down the brutality of what he said on 17th?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     How could it possibly mitigate it? It is ridiculous. And
26what is your evidence for saying I deliberately did it?

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 1Let me explain, in case his Lordship does not realize,
 2that when I wrote this book it was written on the basis of
 320,000 pink filing cards, and it is very easy when you are
 4writing a manuscript and you have 25 filing cards to the
 5left of your typewriter which you have collected over the
 6previous five or 10 years to juxtapose two filing cards so
 7you get one date wrong. There is nothing deliberate about
 8that. These things happen.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You transposed an earlier date, it is quite clear -- do
10you have a copy of this Hillgruber book?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I will write a formal admission for you if you want.
12I got the date wrong by one day, but to say that this is
13deliberately done for a purpose is perverse.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You actually repeated it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     What you do not like is Adolf Hitler saying, "We cannot
16kill them".
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I accept that Adolf Hitler did not say that anyway, he
18said, "That is not necessary"?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I accept that he said that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is what you do not like.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not mind what Adolf Hitler said. He is not on trial,
23Mr Irving. In a sense, what is on trial here is your
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a bent piece of history?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right, but to say that I got the date
 2wrong by one and, therefore, this is a deliberate
 3misrepresentation of Adolf Hitler's views.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, if you have an entry for 167th and an entry for 17th?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     A filing card for the 16th and a filing card for the 17th.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It involves removing from the 16th and transferring to the
 717th something which was said the day before, and you know
 8that, do you not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, maybe you can explain to the court because it
10certainly surpasses my understanding how that in some way
11mitigates Adolf Hitler's guilt or otherwise or how it can
12be said to be a deliberate perversion, the fact that a
13date is wrong by one digit.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ribbentrop, which you do not quote at all in the main text
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The book is about Hitler, not Ribbentrop.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Ribbentrop makes a murder reference to a choice
18between extermination and concentration camp.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     In what terms does he make that reference? Shall we go
20back to it and see.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is here. I will read it from Professor Evans
22which you have accepted is an accurate translation?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Ribbentrop says: "The Jews must be either annihilated",
24"vernichte", "or taken to the concentration camps. There
25is no other way".
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right.

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